Upping The Boost What Else Is Needed

[geea]

Geea

How are you running such fast times (13.322) if you havent already done these mods?

Hey trbo 6, I have 4 mods to the car so far. The first 3 were the centre muffler removed with bolt on straight through pipes, I added a second home made intake into the air box and I added a BMC panel filter. With these 3 mods I ran a 14.02 at Calder. I then purchased a Xede from Amberley autos in Dandenong. With the Xede tuned I returned to Calder where I started running 13.8's straight after driving there from Chadstone. I then let the car cool down a bit and ran a 13.6 followed by the 13.322. To say I was rapt is an understatement. I was hoping for mid 13's so the 13.3 was great.

If I could spend the money without SWMBO killing me :banghead: I would get either the Chiptorque or APS kits. I'm hoping for 350fwkw's. Because I can't justify the extra power being more important than a new bathroom I have to do budget mods. I research as much as I can then spend wisely. The wife has ok'd the new injectors as a birthday present so now I have to make sure that I allow for everything This is the benifits of using one the tuning shops, the research is already done.

Geea.

[geea]

Geea

2) The stock solenoid can only bleed a small amount of air and so for higher boost pressures will not be able to bypass enough air to fool the actuator ie. Lower boost then demanded. So even if you have a after market ECU delivering a 100% duty cycle command to the solenoid ie. Completely open, pneumatically it will only be to fool the stock actuator for a few more psi.

3)-4) The stock flap in its OEM application was designed to flow a certain amount of exhaust gas. Once you start to free up the restrictions built into the engine then the flap can’t bypass enough gas and you have cases of turbo charger over speeding ie. Over boost. To change the flap requires machining of the turbine housing which is best left to the professionals. The waste gate actuator is basically a technician’s job and can be done by you but requires the turbo be taken off the engine. Honestly I wouldn’t bother with it myself since the turbo shop could change the actuator and flap at the same time.

Thanks Unigroup, Regarding 2) what is the solution to the solenoid poroblem. Would the stock solenoid be ok upto 12psi, if not what would you think would be its limits.

Regarding 3-4) What would be a reasonable price to have this done?

Thanks Geea.

[trbo 6]

I ran at WSID after putting APS Phase 1 on the car and only managed a 14.2 pass. Think it might be cause it's the heavier ute. I've put the phase II in and would be happy to get the same numbers that you've got. Well done, very good times. What sort of power output are you getting. I've got 276rwk in the auto, and hope to crack into the 12s.

[geea]

I ran at WSID after putting APS Phase 1 on the car and only managed a 14.2 pass. Think it might be cause it's the heavier ute. I've put the phase II in and would be happy to get the same numbers that you've got. Well done, very good times. What sort of power output are you getting. I've got 276rwk in the auto, and hope to crack into the 12s.

I have 233 rwkw's at the moment but its not shootout mode. I think mine would be higher in shootout mode.

I think alot depends on the temperature, both the car and the ambient. Let your car cool down and run on a cool night and 12's should be easy for you with phase II.

Geea.

[geea]

Would APS or NIZPRO be able to explain what they do to solve the problems that Unigroup stated?

By this I mean do they have to do anything with the solenoid. Do they also have solutions for the wastegate flap and actuator?

Or are these not problems till greater KW's than the APS III or NIZPRO II are achieved?

If you happen to read this BCL have you had to do anything regarding this side of things?

Geea.

[aps]

Would APS or NIZPRO be able to explain what they do to solve the problems that Unigroup stated?

By this I mean do they have to do anything with the solenoid. Do they also have solutions for the wastegate flap and actuator?

Or are these not problems till greater KW's than the APS III or NIZPRO II are achieved?

If you happen to read this BCL have you had to do anything regarding this side of things?

Geea.

Hi Geea, We address all of these issues in the phase III system, though we have never had a problem controlling boost pressure via the factory Ford bleed solenoid.

Most of these boost control problems become more prominent when the stock Ford intercooler is replaced with a larger less restrictive intercooler system (bigger intercooler core and end tanks and high flow intercooler plumbing) and when a true high flow full turbo back exhaust system is installed which removes the high exhaust back pressure, hence the turbo pressure increases.

With the increased turbo pressure and fuel delivery, and the greater combustion of air and fuel mixtures, this results in a larger volume of exhaust gases which the stock Ford by pass (watse gate) cant cope with. :(

This results in the turbine wheel being over speed to the point where the turbo pressure is out of control, as the exhaust gases cannot be wasted quickly enough, the only practical and cost effective method to address this issue is to increase the bypass orifice size and to install a larger swing valve component.

These parts are standard in the APS Phase III system, and the parts are also available with the APS intercooler system.Fact is this is a complex problem to solve when a number of different brand of aftermarket components are combined as it depends on how effiecient the intercooler and exhaust system design is, the less restrictive both systems are the greater the need to address the boost control issue.

Best to leave this problem to an expert tuner to sort for you, as there are a number of ways to solve the issue depending on the power level you want and the type of components being utilised.

Peter

APS

Edited 07/03/04 01:30 AM by aps

[cuspub]

Would APS or NIZPRO be able to explain what they do to solve the problems that Unigroup stated?

By this I mean do they have to do anything with the solenoid. Do they also have solutions for the wastegate flap and actuator?

Or are these not problems till greater KW's than the APS III or NIZPRO II are achieved?

If you happen to read this BCL have you had to do anything regarding this side of things?

Geea.

Whether its the Stage 1 or Stage 2 Cobra kit, apart from the valve spring issue whereby Cobra (Nizpro) agrees that the catalytic converter can be a little restrictive (once heat kills it resulting in vastly higher back pressure hence valve spring dramas), all of the points addressed by Unigroup are answered.

But of course, the way Cobra goes about things is different to APS, as we don't bother changing the stock fuel pump given a rating that is certainly capable of handling at least 370fwkw. And as you know we also retain the stock exhaust.

In stark contrast to how Cobra retains the factory exhaust, there has and continues to be massive dissention regarding retaining this item with many suggesting it simply hasn't the flow capacity (hence back pressure) required to cope with say 13 psi and in Cobra's case, 290 rwkW.

If this is the case, how is it that Turbo6 has run a 12.63 @ 113.6 mph with an untouched Cobra Stage 2 kit (no exhaust, no fuel pump upgrade)?

Facing facts, as mentioned earlier, we acknowledge that the cat can be a problem, however until such time as it melts or falls apart (as they do after some time), we have no concerns with the factory exhaust.

This said, by replacing the stock catalytic converter with a genuine high-flowing item we can increase rear wheel power output to approximately 305 (depending on the vehicle) and as such Cobra is now offering a replacement cat for this specific reason. But hey, until such time as the stock cat dies, we don't believe it's worth replacing. In other words, why spend more than you have to?

Geea, I hope this helps. Noting of course that all of the issues mentioned earlier in the thread relate to systems that simply endeavour to improve on the inherently flawed factory induction system. Cobra, as you know, does away with the factory system all together.

Greg Brindley.

Nizpro.

[geea]

Would APS or NIZPRO be able to explain what they do to solve the problems that Unigroup stated?

By this I mean do they have to do anything with the solenoid. Do they also have solutions for the wastegate flap and actuator?

Or are these not problems till greater KW's than the APS III or NIZPRO II are achieved?

If you happen to read this BCL have you had to do anything regarding this side of things?

Geea.

Hi Geea, We address all of these issues in the phase III system, though we have never had a problem controlling boost pressure via the factory Ford bleed solenoid.

Most of these boost control problems become more prominent when the stock Ford intercooler is replaced with a larger less restrictive intercooler system (bigger intercooler core and end tanks and high flow intercooler plumbing) and when a true high flow full turbo back exhaust system is installed which removes the high exhaust back pressure, hence the turbo pressure increases.

With the increased turbo pressure and fuel delivery, and the greater combustion of air and fuel mixtures, this results in a larger volume of exhaust gases which the stock Ford by pass (watse gate) cant cope with. :(

This results in the turbine wheel being over speed to the point where the turbo pressure is out of control, as the exhaust gases cannot be wasted quickly enough, the only practical and cost effective method to address this issue is to increase the bypass orifice size and to install a larger swing valve component.

These parts are standard in the APS Phase III system, and the parts are also available with the APS intercooler system.Fact is this is a complex problem to solve when a number of different brand of aftermarket components are combined as it depends on how effiecient the intercooler and exhaust system design is, the less restrictive both systems are the greater the need to address the boost control issue.

Best to leave this problem to an expert tuner to sort for you, as there are a number of ways to solve the issue depending on the power level you want and the type of components being utilised.

Peter

APS

Wow peter, thanks for the detailed response.

The more I learn about my car the more I need to save to afford the mods it needs.

On a slightly different subject, is there any difference in the auto upgrades fopr the Phase II and III. If so what would the differences entail and what would the price difference be. :banghead:

Geea.

[geea]

Would APS or NIZPRO be able to explain what they do to solve the problems that Unigroup stated?

By this I mean do they have to do anything with the solenoid. Do they also have solutions for the wastegate flap and actuator?

Or are these not problems till greater KW's than the APS III or NIZPRO II are achieved?

If you happen to read this BCL have you had to do anything regarding this side of things?

Geea.

Whether its the Stage 1 or Stage 2 Cobra kit, apart from the valve spring issue whereby Cobra (Nizpro) agrees that the catalytic converter can be a little restrictive (once heat kills it resulting in vastly higher back pressure hence valve spring dramas), all of the points addressed by Unigroup are answered.

But of course, the way Cobra goes about things is different to APS, as we don't bother changing the stock fuel pump given a rating that is certainly capable of handling at least 370fwkw. And as you know we also retain the stock exhaust.

In stark contrast to how Cobra retains the factory exhaust, there has and continues to be massive dissention regarding retaining this item with many suggesting it simply hasn't the flow capacity (hence back pressure) required to cope with say 13 psi and in Cobra's case, 290 rwkW.

If this is the case, how is it that Turbo6 has run a 12.63 @ 113.6 mph with an untouched Cobra Stage 2 kit (no exhaust, no fuel pump upgrade)?

Facing facts, as mentioned earlier, we acknowledge that the cat can be a problem, however until such time as it melts or falls apart (as they do after some time), we have no concerns with the factory exhaust.

This said, by replacing the stock catalytic converter with a genuine high-flowing item we can increase rear wheel power output to approximately 305 (depending on the vehicle) and as such Cobra is now offering a replacement cat for this specific reason. But hey, until such time as the stock cat dies, we don't believe it's worth replacing. In other words, why spend more than you have to?

Geea, I hope this helps. Noting of course that all of the issues mentioned earlier in the thread relate to systems that simply endeavour to improve on the inherently flawed factory induction system. Cobra, as you know, does away with the factory system all together.

Greg Brindley.

Nizpro.

Thanks Greg, its great that people can ask questions on this forum and get detailed responses from various tuning houses and then form their own opinions.

With regard to the Nizpro catalytic converter, is this available seperately and what sort of price would we be looking at?

Also with the waste gate, how do Nizpro solve this issue? Do they use a similar method to APS or do they take a different approach?

Thanks Geea.

[Worpor]

Geea

Been mudling my way through the whole mod thing my self. :banghead: It seems to me that if you want street reliability and 330 fwkw and the cops off your back and dont plan on having a full on race car, the APS stage II is the way to go. Playing it on the safe side. As I will 45 000 to 55 000 metro Kms a year. I dont feel like taking the chance of the boys pulling me up and oops back to the work shop and off it all comes Havent got the time for that, since the ute will be replaced in a year.

I can see merits in both systems but atm for me the APS seems the way to go. If I was to go for a full on system Id start all over again.

that's my 2 cents worth and what Ive come up with for me and my situation.

If any one has any coments about what Ive said please let me know as all info is apreciated.

Tony