Oils Aint Oils <Merged Thread>

[SILK RSPEC]

I am a little confused,

I am just about to change to a fully synthetic oil in my RSPEC and was looking at mobil one oils as I have never had a problem with them and a friend bought my dads vl turbo which was running it and he pulled the head off to do some head work and found it still had the factory hone marks at over 300,000 kms. that's has really inpressed me cause my dad gave his car heaps of pedal mashing.

my question is should I go for a 5w-50 or the 15w-50. I always start my car up and drive it normally until warms up so I am asuming the 15w-50 would be best. as I give it a real hard time once it is warm. usually acellerating at full throttle from every set of lights. must be the lead foot I have.

here is some info I found on there site

http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/LCW...ces/Mobil_1.asp

they say 15w-50 is for race stuff but older engines and 5w-50 for driving excellence. I am confused,

http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/LCW...uper_Family.asp

I am definetly not putting 0w-40 cause Castrol edge have marketed thier crap well

Edited 27/05/08 11:49 PM by myti4

[SILK RSPEC]

I just spoke to Mobil about the oils and they said I should use a 0w-40 as the 40 is te highest number specified in the book and they cannot recommend the 5w-50 oils etc. He said the reason they may of specified the 40 oil is becuse of engine tollerences and that a 50 or 60 wieght oil would be to thick and would give poor fuel economy. He said we would be best to talk to FPV about there decision and if a hight wieght oil is o.k.

He said putting a thicker oil in would void warranty from Ford most likely without written permission.

anyone want to ring or talk to FPV to get a written answer. maybe SENNA could talk to them in house

and get something in writing

[Lawsy]

I <3 Bananas mate, you sure know your oils. What is the reason Ford recommends the LPG (15 50) for the turbos and not 10-40?

I didn't think they did.

I just woke up, so this might not make much sense (today is my only day off, and I still have to go in to uni later on... How gay is that).

Ok here are a few oils that the oil companies recommend. I haven't previously looked this up for the XR6 Turbo until now, so hopefully I'm not full of crap. Oh, the BA - BFsII was the same for each recommendation.

Also note that I'd be more inclined to listen to the oil company, than to my local service rep, since the oil company is responsible for the warranty if something goes wrong, due to a direct problem cause by their recommendation (as it is in writing, not "simon says"--> Provable case).

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Penrite 10w-50 - HPR10, its a semi synthetic, very high quality base stock, very high quality oil for a semi synthetic. If this was fully syth I'd put this oil up with the Purple/Nulon stuff.

Castrol recommend Magnatec or GTX3 - that's a 10w-40 or a 15w-40.

Valvoline recommend Problend, 15w-40

Mobil recommend, Mobil 1 0w-40 and 5w-50, SUPER 2000 X2 10W-40 or MOBIL FORMULA S2 10W-40

The Mobil recommendation is probably the most, and least helpful, all at the same time.

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Its the least helpful in that, they do not make this recommendation as a guide to cross reference another brands lubricants. This is a recommendation for mobil 1 and mobil 1 only. Ok let me explain.

Who is going to buy this sort of oil (at 60-81 dollars per 5L bottle, when you need two 5L bottles, or a 5L and two 1L bottles... Its near enough 100 bucks either way you look at it)? Only the most hardcore XR6 Turbo owner, why? Because they are meticulous with their startup procedure, and will not stuff it up. Thus, they can get away with it. BUT, like I said in my previous post (yet to be confirmed though) apparently the 5w in the mobile 1 range is very close to being a 10w anyways. I really really wish someone would make public the independant testing of this oil, but I'm yet to find it. If someone out there can leak it to me, it would be appreciated.

Then, Mobil 1 is actually helpful though in that the products recommended for the masses is again a 10w-40.

That should just about do it.

So, where does this leave us?

Its clear that the performance oil companies do infact take the time to actually think about what they recommend.

Penrite, awesome oils, 10w-50. Fantastic recommendation. Evidense would suggest that the penrite oils are on the lower side of the index, ie, their 50 is only just above 40, their 60 is borderline 50, etc. Other brands with a 60 can make an engine almost "choke" on the oil, but the Penrite 60 doesn't. Need I say more?

Mobil, slightly confusing for the masses, but translated this recommendation is saying that "If you're willing to spend this much cash on oil, then you surely must be paying attention to what you're doing with it, and won't flog it from a cold start. If you do, since our oil is at the higher end of the 5w range, you should be protected enough anyway". that's how I read it, and every other recommendation inadvertently agree's...

So, with the jury back in, 10w-40 and if you run a lot of power or live in a hot climate, 10w or 15w-50 are still the safest, highest performing and most protecting oil viscosity ranges for an XR6 Turbo motor.

I cannot, however, totally agree with the mobil 1 0w-40 recommendation. Its the most expensive oil in their range, and I just can't quite see that not having something to do with it. That, and the fact that a reputable engineer once said the XR6 turbo's-turbo can be starved with really thin oil on a cold start, makes me wonder if its a product range limitation. Ie, they don't want to be seen without a recommendion for a large market. Or if my message down the grapevine is correct; the 0w and 5w oils are pushing on 10w anyway.

That seems fairly logical, wouldn't you agree?

Edited 28/05/08 01:13 AM by Lawsy

[jbute]

A lot of contradictions it seems from our local experts. Castrol 0-40 is actually approved by FPV ? that's strange a lot of people are saying to use 50, 60 weight.When the highests recommended is 40 weight, then they go on to say if you live in the hotter part of OZ use a heavier oil. Don't Ford do their testing in the Northern territory towing heavy caravans on hot days to push them to there limits, god these magazine do lie ?

I use Mobil One 0W-40 never burns, don't lose oil & is not noisy what so ever, Mobil have been around for many years & is tried & tested the oil of choice in the new R35 GTR Skyline, Turbo Porsche's, Austin Martin the list goes on ! boy is must be terrible stuff....

Grades

The Society of Automotive Engineers, usually abbreviated as SAE, has established a numerical code system for grading motor oils according to their kinematic viscosity. SAE viscosity gradings include the following: 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 or 60. Some of the numbers can be suffixed with the letter W. Note that the SAE operate a separate viscosity rating system for transmission oils which should not be confused with engine oil viscosity. The higher numbers of a transmission oil (eg 75W-140) do not mean that it is necessarily higher viscosity than an engine oil.

Single-grade

For single-grade oils, the kinematic viscosity is measured at a reference temperature of 100°C (212°F) in units of mm²/s or the equivalent older non-SI units, centistokes (abbreviated cSt). Based on the range of viscosity the oil falls in at that temperature, the oil is graded as an SAE number 0, 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, or 60. The higher the viscosity, the higher the SAE grade number is. These numbers are often referred to as the weight of a motor oil. The reference temperature is meant to approximate the operating temperature to which motor oil is exposed in an engine.

The viscosity of single-grade oil derived from petroleum unimproved with additives changes considerably with temperature. As the temperature increases, the viscosity of the oil decreases logarithmically in a relatively predictable manner. On single-grade oils, viscosity testing can be done at cold, winter (W) temperature (as well as checking minimum viscosity at 100°C or 212°F) to grade an oil as SAE number 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W, or 25W. A single-grade oil graded at the hot temperature is expected to test into the corresponding grade at the winter temperature; I.e. a 10 grade oil should correspond to a 10W oil. For some applications, such as when the temperature ranges in use are not very wide, single-grade motor oil is satisfactory; for example, lawn mower engines, and vintage or classic cars.

Multi-grade

The temperature range the oil is exposed to in most vehicles can be wide, ranging from cold ambient temperatures in the winter before the vehicle is started up to hot operating temperatures when the vehicle is fully warmed up in hot summer weather. A specific oil will have high viscosity when cold and a low viscosity at the engine's operating temperature. The difference in viscosities for any single-grade oil is too large between the extremes of temperature. To bring the difference in viscosities closer together, special polymer additives called viscosity index improvers, or VIs are added to the oil. These additives make the oil a multi-grade motor oil. The idea is to cause the multi-grade oil to have the viscosity of the base number when cold and the viscosity of second number when hot. This enables one type of oil to be generally used all year, and when multi-grades were initially developed, they were frequently described as all-season oil. The viscosity of a multi-grade oil still varies logarithmically with temperature, but the slope representing the change is lessened. This slope representing the change with temperature depends on the nature and amount of the additives to the base oil.

The SAE designation for multi-grade oils includes two grade numbers; for example, 10W-30 designates a common multi-grade oil. Historically, the first number associated with the W (again 'W' is for Winter, not Weight) is not rated at any single temperature. The "10W" means that this oil can be pumped by your engine as well as a single-grade SAE 10 oil can be pumped. "5W" can be pumped at a lower temperature than "10W" and "0W" can be pumped at a lower temperature than "5W". The second number, 30, means that the viscosity of this multi-grade oil at 100°C (212°F) operating temperature corresponds to the viscosity of a single-grade 30 oil at same temperature. The governing SAE standard is called SAE J300. This "classic" method of defining the "W" rating has since been replaced with a more technical test where a "cold crank simulator" is used at increasingly lowered temps. A 0W oil is tested at -35°C, a 5W at -30°C and a 10W is tested at -25°C. The real-world ability of an oil to crank in the cold is diminished soon after put into service. The motor oil grade and viscosity to be used in a given vehicle is specified by the manufacturer of the vehicle (although some modern European cars now make no viscosity requirement), but can vary from country to country when climatic or mpg constraints come into play. Oil circulates through the piston oil rings to cool and lubricate the compression rings. Inside gasoline engines, the top compression ring is exposed to temperatures as high as 320 °F (160 °C).

Many new vehicles are marked to use 5W-20 oil (Honda, Ford, and more recently Toyota) which is not much thinner than a 30 weight oil. Nay-sayers of 20 weight oil's ability to protect engines should note that typically, 30 weight oils shear down into the 20 weight range anyway. Most engine wear is during start-up and warm-up period, where the thinner 20 weight oil's flow is desirable. Overall, lab test results of the wear metals contained in used oil samples show low or lower wear with 20 weight than 30 in applications it is specified for. Some ultra fuel efficient and hybrid vehicles are marked to use 0W-20 oil. For some selective mechanical problems with engines, using a more viscous oil can ameliorate the symptoms, I.e. changing from 5W-20 to 20W-50 may eliminate a knocking noise from the engine but doesn't solve the problem, just "masks" it. Excess amounts of oil consumed by an engine burning it can be addressed by using a thicker oil, a 10W-40 might not burn off as fast compared to a 5W-30. A newer product that also addresses this issue is the "High-Miles" oils now marketed. They tend to be slightly thick for their grades, contain extra additives and seal conditioners. Apparently the formulation of these oils works well in many instances.

Turbine

Turbine motor oils are designed somewhat differently than reciprocating engine oils traditionally used in automobiles. Deposit control and corrosion are not significant issues when formulating a turbine oil, and the shear stresses that turbine oils are exposed to are minimal in light of the fact that turbines are naturally balanced rotating machines unlike reciprocating engines. Turbine oils tend to have the ISO VG range 32, 46, and 68 (cSt at 40°C), and make extensive use of polyolester, polyalphaolefin, and Group II as base stock due to the high temperatures they must endure. Varnish is the most problematic contaminant, which can only be detected accurately with the ultra centrifuge test resulting in the "UC value".

In most aviation gas turbine applications, peak lubricant temperatures are not reached during engine operation, but after shutdown, when heat has been able to migrate from the combustor cans and the compressors into the regions of the engine with lubricated bearings and gearboxes. The gas flow associated with running the turbine provides significant convective cooling that disappears when the engine is shut down, leaving residual heat that causes temperatures within the turbine to rise dramatically, an often-misunderstood phenomenon.

Edited 28/05/08 01:41 AM by jbute

[senna_T]

anyone want to ring or talk to FPV to get a written answer. maybe SENNA could talk to them in house

and get something in writing

IMO, the fact that FPV recommend this oil is due to a contractual agreement and results from testing with Castrol. I would say using only this type of oil would narrow down the possibilities when it comes to warranty work. If everyone uses the same oil then it is straight forward. If you use an oil viscosity that FPV and Castrol haven't tested, they cannot gaurantee that you will have no problems and in turn will not warrant that oil type.

Its basically just covering their asses

[Lawsy]

What website did you get that off jbute? Some good information, it is a fairly brief summery (yep, the long version is a 200 page book) and a lot of the back story to why we use these numbers and such, though it would have been nice if the author provided what the viscosity actually is for each grade. I'll make a separate post for that though.

I'm still intrigued by the apparent FPV recommendation for the edge 0w-40... I'd say its more likely one of the oils that are "on the list" rather than what they would recommend you use., since the motor simply does not require an oil designed for constant sub zero temperature starts; we just don't need it!! I don't know of anywhere in Australia that you would need, all winter, to start your car at with an oil temp of -35°C (which means ambient would be somewhere near -40°C for this to happen). Which is why a 5w or 10w would be the norm, as both would be more than thin enough at a normal cold starting temperature around this fine country.

I guess something else needs to be explained here.

If you have an oil temp of say, 40°C as your "cold start" (you may you live in the hottest part of the country), is that oil "warmed up?". The answer is yes, that oil is on its way. As soon as this motor has full oil circulation, it will be protected.

Warming an oil up doesn't mean it has to be warmed by the engine, its properties change with temperature, regardless of where this heat source comes from.

This means that those chains I was talking about earlier (the rope thing) are already starting stretch out! This is a good thing for all components involved, since the chains will already be preventing metal to metal contact from the word go. These chains are also part of the viscosity modifiers, they are the major part of the viscosity modifier package and protection formula.

This very reason is also why I still think a 10w is the sweet spot for this motor. Since our average cold start temp would be sitting around 18°C (obviously this totally depends on where you live, but 20 seems to high for an average, and 15 seems to low, feel free to chuck your 2c in here, it would make it easy to get the right oil for you), so a 10w oil at 18°C is already acting like a 5w would at 0 to 10°C. Its already in the process of viscosity reduction..

Does that make a bit more sense? Please let me know, because there is just so much to oils, and I'm trying to put as much relevant information down as possible, as I think of it; the more I think and search on the topic, the better chance I've got at providing reliable information, and since I love the XR6T, I truly want to provide you blokes with the best I've got. I'll find the viscosity index numbers and put them in another post.

[Lawsy]

Ok so here is what I'm trying to get at.

Firstly, take a look at this table here (its the SAE standard's table, published basically everywhere in technical articles relating to oil viscosity.

Now, make a mental note of some of those numbers, some of them may not mean a whole lot in practical terms, but they are all very important.

Ok the first column represents the highest viscosity value a tested oil may have to fit into a particular grade/category. This means that in order to obtain a rating as 0w, the cranking viscosity must be below 6200 @ -35°C. The temperatures are vitally important when reading these values.

Take a look at the low shear max values for the 0w and the 5w oils (4th column), its the same (3.. The viscosity value for these two grades of oil almost converge and make a similar path if plotted on a temp/viscosity diagram. They are most different at the lower extreme temperatures, least different from about 40 onwards. In the real world, from around 0°C-20°C, they are similar enough in viscosity performance that it is negligible.

The true pour point of a 0w oil is much lower than a 5w oil though, sometimes by as much as 15 degrees! That is why it exists, though.

Note, these values are not the be all and end all values for grading an oil, these are only some of the requirements that an oil must meet in order to be classified by the standard. I can't find the others (wish I could though, as there is more to the story).

Now take a look at the values for the grades not suffixed by W, these values represent your running temperature viscosity and therefore your running temp performance.

See how the 60 grade starts at 21.9 and ends at 26.1 (measured in centistokes)?

Its safe to assume that oils like HPR15, Edge 10w-60 are very close to the 21.9 value. Which makes perfect sense, as these oils are designed for modern engines, they wouldn't want to be near the 26.1, as this would well and truly be too viscous, and practical examination of an engines performance agree's (go run a cheap xxw-60 vs the edge 10w-60 or HPR15 and you'll see why).

BUT, I still would not recommend anyone here run a 60 grade oil in a post BA Ford I6 motor that isn't a track day special, where the 60 would actually thin down, due to the significantly higher heat involved, to a viscosity of an average 50 grade anyway, providing an increased film strength for such a high level of engine loading.

Ok so, take a quick look at the last column, see how there is two entries for 40 grade oils? This is because there is a jump in the amount of viscosity indexing required to prevent a 10w oil from thinning beyond the 40 grade, than a 15w would... With fully synthetics though, this isn't a bad thing, since the oil is designed with its intended viscosity in mind, so the composition of the synthetic itself will have inherent viscosity indexing due to the way it was engineered. This means it can have a lower viscosity under high stress but maintain a high film strength at the same time.

Today's oils are simply awesome in what they do.

I have a lot of respect for the engineers who manage to calculate and formulate these oils, as they manage to provide awesome properties under so many different stresses and flow rates that we are bordering on lubricant perfection. If you run the correct viscosity for your engine, you can run the engine hard after 30 seconds without too much worry. Which is what I've been trying to get at all along.

The numbers are there, the temperatures you feel in the mornings and the way you drive/how much power you have, are your guide. Use your head, consider all of the information you can, and you should be able to come out with an oil that will satisfy your situation.

Though I don't really think its required, you can even run a winter and a summer grade oil. Run something thinner in winter, and slightly thicker in summer. But I don't really recommend you do this, as your engine is designed to maintain its core temperature within a fairly wide ambient temperature range. A range that covers 99.9% of Australia, 4 seasons a year. Ford may do some stupid things sometimes, but when it comes to these engines, they certainly have done their homework.

So, full synthetic 10w-40 still wins out for the majority of you blokes running either standard or fairly modified motors. If you're in BCL's league though, ask Simon from Nizpro; I've given up trying to figure out what oil is needed in such an extreme case (it's a toss up between M1 5w-50, RP 10w-50 and Nulon 10w-40). Too many pro's for each oil, without enough con's to sway the balance. You decide.

[EZ2CME]

Umm yeah...

Once I've done a few more km's I'm changing to fully synthetic 10w-60.

that's what I run in mine.

[Lawsy]

Well, next time you do an oil change, try this.

Change your oil while its hot (try not to burn yourself though) and let it drain for a good half hour to an hour. Get yourself some Nulon 10w-40, or some royal purple 10w-40, and give it a go. They are both fantastic oils and you just might find you get more economy, and a bit more top end. Keep a small amount of the 10w-60 in a sealed glass jar, and after say, 10 thousand km's, dump the 10w-40 and take a look. See if one or the other is cloudy, shine a 5000k Xenon light through both (5000k HID's have more lumens in the the colour spectrum that reflects the best off metal) and check for any little flecks of metal in each.

You may find something, you may find nothing. You might end up looking at two jars of gold fluid thinking 'wtf?'. So be it, but give it a go anyways.

See how you go dude.

[Adam]

I think you'll find that the FPV approval on the 0W-40 is for the V8's.