45T-XR Donating Members 417 Member For: 17y 9m 13d Gender: Male Location: Gladstone, Queensland Posted 02/10/14 09:24 PM Share Posted 02/10/14 09:24 PM Great post Luke, couldn't have put it better myself. Although in my own car, Knock sensors have been off for ages. I believe that oscillations in the timing curve (caused by false knock/and my forgies) hurt average power at the track. There are a heap of tables that apply to knock sensors, nearly all of which I don't have the gear to correctly calibrate. I've seen quite a few tunes now, it might be something to do with a few of the tables not crossing over into HP (which I doubt) but it seems some tuners are using the knock sensors to trim the final ignition timing and could not possibly be logging the timing curve to compare against the desired maps in the tune. Apart from the whole dyno x vs dyno y variances etc I think that this is the reason some cars make good hp on the dyno but don't perform well at the track. I can't prove that though as I refuse to tune anyones car that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Captain Retard" Member 1,417 Member For: 10y 7m 17d Gender: Male Location: Shellharbour NSW Posted 02/10/14 09:35 PM Share Posted 02/10/14 09:35 PM I've always been curious how this works as well.The figures in colour, are they the timing positions?Does delay mean time and recovery mean advance?What I'm trying to say is I don't understand what those figures mean or how they relate to each other.Forgive my stupidness!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollex Member 683 Member For: 10y 6m 11d Gender: Male Location: Australia Posted 03/10/14 12:56 AM Author Share Posted 03/10/14 12:56 AM (edited) Captain I believe delay time would be like a deadband, eg it keeps the retard at x degrees for that amount of time, if no knock is detected it adds the retard back to the timing.Recovery rate would be how many degrees it "recovers" each delay time seconds. I imagine each time "knock" is detected it increases retard by 1 degree as there is no table to specify how much it pulls each event, perhaps it is multiplied by how bad the detected knock is.How is my guess ralph?Excessive spark retard generates a lot of heat and can be as harmful as knock.Basic spark retard tables from a BF F6.Screenshot_2014-10-02-21-16-48.pngScreenshot_2014-10-02-21-16-41.pngScreenshot_2014-10-02-21-16-35.png14 degrees of retard at peak torque is a sh*tload, that should stop even the worst pinging, if you've got a lean out bad enough to still ping with 14 degrees taken out then I doubt the car will even be running.Do you agree? Great post Luke, couldn't have put it better myself. Although in my own car, Knock sensors have been off for ages. I believe that oscillations in the timing curve (caused by false knock/and my forgies) hurt average power at the track. There are a heap of tables that apply to knock sensors, nearly all of which I don't have the gear to correctly calibrate. I've seen quite a few tunes now, it might be something to do with a few of the tables not crossing over into HP (which I doubt) but it seems some tuners are using the knock sensors to trim the final ignition timing and could not possibly be logging the timing curve to compare against the desired maps in the tune. Apart from the whole dyno x vs dyno y variances etc I think that this is the reason some cars make good hp on the dyno but don't perform well at the track. I can't prove that though as I refuse to tune anyones car that way. I know in old nissans they disabled knock detection over 5500 rpm as the amount of engine noise they make they could no longer reliably detect knock, old motors with rattling heads and noise from the bottom end due to forged pistons etc may also generated false knock readings.Personally I am of the opinion you should do your tune with knock detection turned off and with knock ears on your head so you know if it is knocking, then when everything is finished turn knock detection back on, confirm it isn't active all the time, then save the tune.Otherwise how do you know if your tune is only working because the knock detection is pulling timing constantly? you definitely don't want that, then you have no protection as the tune has been pulling the max knock retard the entire time. I would absolutely not be surprised if there are aftermarket tunes getting around that only work because of the knock detection. Edited 03/10/14 01:03 AM by rollex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETURBO ...JD TUNING ADELAIDE... Gold Donating Members 23,708 Member For: 16y 6m 18d Gender: Male Location: Adelaide Posted 03/10/14 01:31 AM Share Posted 03/10/14 01:31 AM U mean like this No idea what your talking about ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnz Member 3,047 Member For: 11y 29d Gender: Male Location: Brisbane Posted 03/10/14 01:41 AM Share Posted 03/10/14 01:41 AM 2 things, Ralph is that a windows VM your running on android or an emulator similar to wine or something?Jet I want that mouse, where u get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Wiggum Moar Powar Babeh Lifetime Members 19,323 Member For: 19y 2m 26d Gender: Male Location: Perth Posted 03/10/14 01:43 AM Share Posted 03/10/14 01:43 AM It's an App I've written to allow me to tune cars and data log from my phone. Im currently in talks with HPT to sell it to them as a supported feature in 2.26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnz Member 3,047 Member For: 11y 29d Gender: Male Location: Brisbane Posted 03/10/14 01:51 AM Share Posted 03/10/14 01:51 AM Looks very cool...so not keen to share the source then lol...how are you achieving the obd link? OTG host? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Wiggum Moar Powar Babeh Lifetime Members 19,323 Member For: 19y 2m 26d Gender: Male Location: Perth Posted 03/10/14 01:54 AM Share Posted 03/10/14 01:54 AM I'm not i'm bullshitting.I was sitting on the couch watching Orange is the New Black with my wife when I posted those shots, so I used teamnviewer to log into my server and screen capped on my phone. I would have been shot for stopping the show to do silly car stuff. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnz Member 3,047 Member For: 11y 29d Gender: Male Location: Brisbane Posted 03/10/14 01:57 AM Share Posted 03/10/14 01:57 AM Lol u had me... I was gonna question it cause it looked all the world like you were running vcm on the phone which would require a bit more than just an app...The trust is gone...;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab WOT? Moderating Team 10,981 Member For: 11y 9m 24d Gender: Male Location: Frankston, 3199 Posted 03/10/14 02:05 AM Share Posted 03/10/14 02:05 AM Well played Ralph, well played Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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