T5 box (split topic)

[Guest hv8355]

  aps said:

  aps said:

. As by your own admission the car did not exactly partake in this event, and was not road legal at the time of testing,

Your comments regarding road legality of the car simply demonstrates your lack of understanding of most STATE and FEDERAL requirements in   particular ADR rules.

The rules are quite simple, an increase in mass or engine power/torque of greater than 10% require an engineer's report.

I believe from what I have read, that at the time of testing, no such report was available ?

I think WBT56's understanding of State and Federal laws is quite good.

Yes the rules are simple, the engineers evaluation has been completed, however as the APS engineering cars are not registered, a formal engineers report can't be lodged previous to first registration of the vehicle.

Fact is at this time and at the time of the test, the vehicle comes under the juristication of the FEDERAL OFFICE OF ROAD SAFETY AND TRANSPORT and the PHASE III car meets all of their requirements in terms of legality.

Peter

APS

Fair enough, I didn't realise they were unregistered, (which isn't road legal in itself but doesn't matter in this discussion) I have no doubt that you will get an engineer to sign off, he/she is responsible for ensuring he/she is satisfied, but as I have asked previously, on what grounds given the requirement for drivetrain suitability ?

Mods, while it remains a sensible discussion between professionals (I'm sure we're both taking it seriously but smiling as we type (Peter?) without personal slurs or attacks, should it remain unlocked ? I believe readers and members are getting some interesting and different views to consider here.

[aps]

  hv8355 said:

  aps said:

  aps said:

. As by your own admission the car did not exactly partake in this event, and was not road legal at the time of testing,

Your comments regarding road legality of the car simply demonstrates your lack of understanding of most STATE and FEDERAL requirements in   particular ADR rules.

The rules are quite simple, an increase in mass or engine power/torque of greater than 10% require an engineer's report.

I believe from what I have read, that at the time of testing, no such report was available ?

I think WBT56's understanding of State and Federal laws is quite good.

Yes the rules are simple, the engineers evaluation has been completed, however as the APS engineering cars are not registered, a formal engineers report can't be lodged previous to first registration of the vehicle.

Fact is at this time and at the time of the test, the vehicle comes under the juristication of the FEDERAL OFFICE OF ROAD SAFETY AND TRANSPORT and the PHASE III car meets all of their requirements in terms of legality.

Peter

APS

Fair enough, I didn't realise they were unregistered, (which isn't road legal in itself but doesn't matter in this discussion) I have no doubt that you will get an engineer to sign off, he/she is responsible for ensuring he/she is satisfied, but as I have asked previously, on what grounds given the requirement for drivetrain suitability ?

Mods, while it remains a sensible discussion between professionals (I'm sure we're both taking it seriously but smiling as we type (Peter?) without personal slurs or attacks, should it remain unlocked ? I believe readers and members are getting some interesting and different views to consider here.

With respect to legal road registration you are incorrect in your statement as the vehicle would not require an engineers report for state registeration if we comply to all ADR's as a second manufacturer, if we choose to go that way with the project.

Its now about time that you come clean and admitted thay you have a vested interest in pushing drive train upgrades for the falcon, otherwise I see little point in continuing this discussion. :o

Peter

APS

[edo]

Peter,

I’m new here & at this stage I do not own a T. It will happen shortly though.

I’ve been reading here for many months & it appears that you do not appreciate people with point of view differing from yours. Yours is not the only valid point of view & you need to realize that. It seems to me that out of everyone on this board you are the one who has the largest vested interest in saying what you are saying, I appreciate you don’t hide who you are but others may not be in a position to do that for fear of retribution from his employer for not towing the company line.

Whilst your kits seem to work & you have obviously had great success in marketing & selling them they do not preclude all other workshops efforts from working as well or better. Similarly just because your T5 has held up nicely doesn’t mean that everyone else’s has. Sure the T56 might not offer the ultimate performance but it is an upgrade, I’m not sure it’s a big enough upgrade for bcl’s car though (I know of some LS1s only making a touch more than his car at the wheels & their T56 has eventually given up, usually after quite a few sprint days).

I’m an amateur in this respect but I would have thought that the getrag out of a TT supra would probably be a better bet with a nicer shift but I haven’t heard of anyone doing that yet. What is the ‘box upgrade that you allude to in your posts above?

I’m awfully curious how you can have high power with low torque given that they adhere to the relationship

HP = Torque (ft/lbs) x RPM /5252.

Care to explain to a layman?

[Adam]

Just jump straight into it why don't ya edo!

There's no point sitting on the side lines, get in there! Ask some questions! Get some answers! Got to love this forum!

Edited 05/02/04 04:46 AM by alxr6t

[aps]

  edo said:

Peter,

I’m new here & at this stage I do not own a T. It will happen shortly though.

I’ve been reading here for many months & it appears that you do not appreciate people with point of view differing from yours. Yours is not the only valid point of view & you need to realize that. It seems to me that out of everyone on this board you are the one who has the largest vested interest in saying what you are saying, I appreciate you don’t hide who you are but others may not be in a position to do that for fear of retribution from his employer for not towing the company line.

Whilst your kits seem to work & you have obviously had great success in marketing & selling them they do not preclude all other workshops efforts from working as well or better. Similarly just because your T5 has held up nicely doesn’t mean that everyone else’s has. Sure the T56 might not offer the ultimate performance but it is an upgrade, I’m not sure it’s a big enough upgrade for bcl’s car though (I know of some LS1s only making a touch more than his car at the wheels & their T56 has eventually given up, usually after quite a few sprint days).

I’m an amateur in this respect but I would have thought that the getrag out of a TT supra would probably be a better bet with a nicer shift but I haven’t heard of anyone doing that yet. What is the ‘box upgrade that you allude to in your posts above?

I’m awfully curious how you can have high power with low torque given that they adhere to the relationship

HP = Torque (ft/lbs) x RPM /5252.

Care to explain to a layman?

Thanks for your point view and that's fair enough. The real issue here is simply the question of transperency, nothing more.

We are all entitled to our opinions (including me and I have 30years of experience in this field :lol: ) however the forum members are equally entitled to know all of the facts in order to make an informed decision.

Members know who I am and what I represent, unlike others on this forum who have a HIDDEN vested interest and do not acknowledge it. :(

Regarding your comments on the T56 trans I could not agree more, I think that it may not be the best trans upgrade for the xr6t.

With regard to other xr6t performance systems there may well be other options and that fine, though I have not seen any other system with the same power and torque of an APS system and that also meets current Australian emission laws(ADR 79/00).

Regarding your gearbox comments this in my view is a very INTELLIGENT observation.......I will say no more.

With your torque/power MATH this has been the standard since Adam was a boy .....nothing new here.

However, the way in which the torque is delivered from the engine has a significant impact on gearbox durability.In any event I still have not seen a T5z trans broken through excessive torque, though this is obviously possible. Thanks for your input on the topic.

Peter

APS

[Guest esky]

  edo said:

I’ve been reading here for many months & it appears that you do not appreciate people with point of view differing from yours. Yours is not the only valid point of view & you need to realize that. It seems to me that out of everyone on this board you are the one who has the largest vested interest in saying what you are saying, I appreciate you don’t hide who you are but others may not be in a position to do that for fear of retribution from his employer for not towing the company line.

What edo said!

[aps]

  esky said:

  edo said:

I’ve been reading here for many months & it appears that you do not appreciate people with point of view differing from yours. Yours is not the only valid point of view & you need to realize that. It seems to me that out of everyone on this board you are the one who has the largest vested interest in saying what you are saying, I appreciate you don’t hide who you are but others may not be in a position to do that for fear of retribution from his employer for not towing the company line.

What edo said!

Oh, that hurts......I"m going home and I am taking my ball as well. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Peter

APS

[edo]

Hahaha,

Anyway, some people here are probably employees for particular companies & therefore may not actually be allowed to disclose who they are & who they work for while offerring opinions without authorisation from their respective bosses. It seems that this might be the situation here.

Im quite sure that if one of your employees was spouting off his opinion about what was going on in your workshop on public forums you might get somewhat peeved.

Congrats on being the first to get the ADR approval, I acknowledge that you were the first to do this for the XR6T but you know very well you wont be the last.

The gearbox thing was pretty obvious to me, they seem to cope with 9 sec Supras on slicks, they have a bolt on bell housing (so you & others could fabricate a new one easier than say on a nissan box), they are nice to use & the clutches are readily avaliable.

I know that equation is old...its also true!

Call me stupid if you want but how do you adjust the way torque is delivered unless you adjust the way power is delivered? The only way I can think is that you dont allow full power (& therefore torque) in the first 2 or 3 gears. Then if that's whats going on, how the hell does your unichip know what gear its in? Unless there is a signal out of the box? Or a road speed sensor (like on the ABS)??

[Guest hv8355]

  edo said:

Hahaha,

Anyway, some people here are probably employees for particular companies & therefore may not actually be allowed to disclose who they are & who they work for while offerring opinions without authorisation from their respective bosses. It seems that this might be the situation here.

Im quite sure that if one of your employees was spouting off his opinion about what was going on in your workshop on public forums you might get somewhat peeved.

Congrats on being the first to get the ADR approval, I acknowledge that you were the first to do this for the XR6T but you know very well you wont be the last.

The gearbox thing was pretty obvious to me, they seem to cope with 9 sec Supras on slicks, they have a bolt on bell housing (so you & others could fabricate a new one easier than say on a nissan box), they are nice to use & the clutches are readily avaliable.

I know that equation is old...its also true!

Call me stupid if you want but how do you adjust the way torque is delivered unless you adjust the way power is delivered? The only way I can think is that you dont allow full power (& therefore torque) in the first 2 or 3 gears. Then if that's whats going on, how the hell does your unichip know what gear its in? Unless there is a signal out of the box? Or a road speed sensor (like on the ABS)??

Exactly edo, I did try to explain this reasoning (jobs/Bosses) earlier but was ignored. If people spent more time looking at the facts than worrying about where everyone was from, the threads would be shorter and the answers would emerge more quickly. Even if it was the case, I don't see that I've pushed the T56 or slagged the T5 in an unnecessary way, I believe it's been logical and unemotional, I've also only had good things to say about the APS upgrade products whereas they have attacked other peoples ???!!!.

I still don't understand fully:

"2) We achieve high power levels with minimal turbo pressure/torque by substantial improvements in system MASS flow."

especially given that age old formula....if anyone can explain this I'd love to understand.

Edited 05/02/04 06:40 AM by hv8355

[rex13bt]

  hv8355 said:

  aps said:

  hv8355 said:

Credit where credit is due.

As torque is proportional to power, there is no minimal torque to obtain a given power reading at a given rpm, only one level of torque will give that one level of power at that rpm. I understand that you have achieved excellent power levels with low levels of boost, and that is what is impressive.

No offence taken, I'm a Mech Engineer, dabbling in Automotive, hard to reveal which OEM as I'm sure you'd appreciate.  Yeah, a bit cheeky joining and then firing away on the one topic but I've visited regularly for months and HAD to get more involved in these interesting discussions.

I am also interested in what you consider sensible torque levels for this drivetrain. You can break or nurse anything but people are interested in your opinion on suitable components to use behind your kits, Ford have validated to a certain torque and released the T5Z, I'm not implying that aftermarket tuners would validate and/or release as per OEM's but some level of confidence is clearly in everyones best interest, that's why I am intrigued as to the engineer's report - how will he/she justify it ?.

Thanks for your reply, I am sure who you are now and of course respect your opinion. We are all entitled to an opinion and our opinion is based on practical in field testing of the T5 transmission.

If you really want to get to the GUTS of this issue, APS engineers have investigated the entire drive train issue and we have greater concerns about the strength of the CV joints than the T5 transmission.

I would appreciate if you would come clean and identify yourself and your business so that your views can be seen in a totally transparent manner.I find your views interesting and quite typical of an engineer from an OEM background.

Regards

Peter

If you know then that's ok, no need for me to say and expose myself to problems here with my Boss for a) lots of forum chat time and b) our own concerns with the drivetrain. It's irrelevant anyway, if my opinions are questioned, that's ok too - check them with someone you trust.

Without having satisfactorily answered your question re identity, I'm sure others are more interested in and have greater respect for, your views than mine. To this end, I am still interested in your response to the power vs minimal torque issue and appropriate torque for the current drivetrain issue.

Sincerely hoping everyone is getting something out of this, as it is very interesting, probably should have started a new drivetrain durability thread to avoid detracting in any way from what was a truely impressive feat in APS achieving 79/00 - mods ??

hv8355

I know where you are comming from with your comments and I too would be interested in what APS engineers consider appropriate torque for the current drivetrain.