Yates C3 High Port Heads On A Cleveland

[HI PSI]

Hi all,

I am looking to put a set of Yates C3 high port heads on a Cleveland. Could you please provide some input as to the potential problems that I may run into. I have very little practical knowledge with engines and I cannot find much info on the net.

Cheers

Brad

[matsfgxr6turbo]

good luck

[BRK]

Mate - For openers - and no disrespect - what do you want to use this engine for?- the forum can work miracles but the think tank needs context.

[BRK]

Here you go.. Lifted off an old site - be real careful with clevo stuff. A1 Hi performance in perth has a lot of mileage with clevelands - and it is hard won info as well.

Unless you already have a set of Yates heads in your possession, or know where you can get a fantastic price on a set, or plan on building a new engine from scratch using a Windsor block, I do not advise using the Yates heads, because there are very good alternatives that are compatible with any Cleveland components, using all readily available, off the shelf, new parts.

The Yates head is really not a Cleveland head. The only thing it has in common with a Cleveland head is the bolt pattern, which is common to all Windsor & 335 series motors. It requires different pistons and specific Yates shaft mount rocker arm systems. The intake manifolds and exhaust manifolds are unique too.

However, since Yates heads are not canted valve heads, the pistons in your Cleveland block will not work with Yates heads. Neither will the rocker arms/valve train.

The Yates C3 heads have very small combustion chambers, 40cc nominal. Too much compression for pump gas. The C3L heads have larger combustion chambers (67 cc nominal) and are a better choice for pump gas.

The only intake manifolds available are the single four barrell, high rise "spider" style intakes.

If the application is a street engine, you'll no doubt be using a cam with lift in the 0.600" range, the flow at higher lifts afforded by the race heads will not be utilized.

The ports in an out of the box Ford race head are very small, they are intended to be ported by each race team to the size, shape and configuration the race teams desire, it is actually very expensive to get a set of Ford race heads ready to bolt onto a short block.
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You haven't mentioned what the intended use of the motor/car will be. So its not possible to focus on what's best for your application. Here's six Cleveland compatible alternatives for anyone to consider:

1) the CHI, AFD or Edelbrock 2V heads

These are for the guy with a mildly tuned street motor, cams up to 0.600" lift. They bolt directly to a Cleveland short block stuffed with Cleveland pistons, will work with any 351C 2V intake manifold, there are some good manifolds to choose from including the Edelbrock Performer, the Edelbrock Air Gap, and the Parker Funnel Web-2V. The alloy 2V heads have exhaust ports compatible with 2V headers (I'm not sure if all 3 will work with 4V headers, but I know the CHI does). These heads are not for making maximum power, but they'll provide great throttle response, and with all out effort will surely support 600 BHP. Dennis Yogi has a set of the Edelbrock's on one of his Panteras. Sorry Dennis, I forget which one.

2) The good ol' CHI 3V head.

The CHI head is a Cleveland head, it bolts right onto a Cleveland short block using Cleveland pistons and Cleveland valve gear. 351C 4V headers will match up too. The intake ports are available in 3 different volumes. The smallest ports are best with a standard displacement motor. The mid size ports are best with a stroker motor. I don't know anyone using the big ports. CHI will advise you which port size to select based upon your motor and your intended use of your car. There are high rise intakes available, and a two plane single four barrel low rise intake too. Any 351C 2V intake can be mated to CHI 3V heads using spacers sold by CHI. These are max effort, serious street heads that can be used for amateur racing too. These heads will support at least 750 BHP, in other words, they are comparable to the cast iron 4V heads in ultimate capability. A whole bunch of Pantera owners are running CHI 3V heads, Art Stevens just built a motor using them.

3) The AFD "SP" (stuffed port) 4V head

Like the CHI head, the AFD head is a Cleveland head, it bolts right onto a Cleveland short block using Cleveland pistons and Cleveland valve gear. 351C 4V headers will again match up too. You don't have quite the intake manifold selection as you do with the CHI heads, but the Parker Funnel Web-4V is a direct bolt on. Like the CHI 3V head, this is a max effort serious street head. AFD has a much larger loyal following in Australia than they do here in North America.

4) The CHI 4V head.

Everything I wrote about the CHI 3V head applies here as well, EXCEPT any 351C 4V intake manifold will bolt to these heads. That gives an owner very many options, such as the Blue Thunder, the Holley Strip Dominator, the Edelbrock Torker, the individual runner Weber 48IDA intakes, the Ford D1ZX-9425-CA (spread bore) and D1ZX-9425-DA (Holley) intakes, and the Weiand, Edelbrock or Offenhauser tunnel ram intakes.

[HI PSI]

Primarily the it will be used as a street/strip application in my weekender (XF Fairmont Ghia).

The main reason that I am looking to go to the Yates heads , is that I have a Morrison Cross Ram manifold that I would like to run. As the manifold was designed and run with this style of head, I assume that this would be the only way that I could run it. Could it fit one of the heads styles that you listed in your earlier post?

I recently contacted a gentleman that sells ex supercar equipment. He has two variants of the high port heads that he is willing to sell. The earlier version has smaller valves and utilises the standard style rocker gear. and the other has the Jesel style. I understand the costs involved with the Jesel style rockers, but as they will be complete heads (Rockers, titanium valves etc.) this is not a concern. With these two choices, I have two areas of concern.

1. Will there be enough clearance for the valves with the cylinders, as the heads (Newer ex supercar style) were built for the Windsor 4.125' bores.
2. Will using the older style heads reduce horsepower, compared to the newer style.

Pistons are another issue, I am hoping that I can source and machine a set to accommodate a suitable compression for 98 ron premium unleaded.

What are your thoughts?

Brad

Edited 19/12/13 07:36 PM by HI PSI

[BRK]

The manifold issue can be checked with some intake gaskets so any alignment issues can be easily seen. I suspect it will fit most aftermarket heads.

The valve clearance on the bores is another matter and that I cannot answer without a physical inspection.

You probably know but - - Compression is another issue as well - the combustion chambers in the yates heads are pretty small it seems, so your piston type will likely need to be a flat top with deck clearance to suit. Static compresson ratio of more than about 11:1 on 98 octane could be an issue unless you are running a cam with the right overlap and duration - plenty of choices but the small rollers go well (245/250 @ 50 thou and around 580/600 lift). Most hi power heads ( and the yates heads are serious stuff) like quench so the more you come off compression, the less effective they are. The 2011 - 2013 engine masters challenges in usa are really interesting from the view of results and what they use - and don't use.. A1 Hi performance have one of the succesful engines - interesting things in terms of overall approach.

That intake setup is a very serious piece of kit - I think the designers might be the best source of info as to the best head combination along with matching the design to capacity and rpm range.

Edited 20/12/13 01:46 AM by BRK

[ms700]

Im running Yates on my Cleveleand, dont let mis-matched intake/exhaust manifolds worry you, I just CNC'd up some adapter plates ofr mine.

Fantastic heads, plenty of meat for porting.

[HI PSI]

Hi all,

thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions. I have a small update..

I arrived home today and spoke to my local engine builder. You confirmed a lot of what you have all said, and to be honest it scared me somewhat as to the potential hidden costs involved.

The main reason that I was looking at the Yates heads, is that I want to fit a cross ram manifold (Pictured - dummy fitted to previous owners engine) that I purchased some time ago.

Until recently, I did not know that the Yates heads are basically the same as normal Cleveland heads (CHI's etc.)

Edited 23/12/13 12:57 PM by Dagabond

[obsty]

I have a complete set that I was thinking of selling

[HI PSI]

Sorry Obsty, I am no longer considering using yates heads. I ordered a set of CHI's instead, as they will work with the manifold.

Thanks anyway.

Brad