Speed Cameras & Bad Cops.....

[Antisocial]

There is a lot of talk about speeding fines and police with bad attitudes.

I felt compelled to rant back, it is my belief most of the people who complain about these issues are victims of their own actions.

And I am not talking about the “don’t speed and you wont get caught” rhetoric you hear from the media.

In most situations all you need is three things:

1. The brains you were born with (Mack & Red obviously working hard on depleting brain cells on a daily basis).

2. Common sense.

3. The POWER OF OBSERVATION, herein referred to as POO.

Now I am obviously not going to admit any illegal activities in a public forum, so let me tell you about a mate of mine…

He is almost 33 and has been driving since aged 17, he has driven a distance of almost ¾ of a million kilometres. And has not made a single trip without speeding, he has driven on public roads at speeds of up to 230km/h and has driven at over 200km/h at least 30 times (and has never been to the NT).

This ‘mate’ has NEVER has a single speeding ticket, never had a speed camera photo, and only been pulled over for speeding once (96km/h in a 60 zone) and was let off with a warning.

He has been pulled over by the cops many times and only been booked for talking on the phone, (8 years ago) it was on the Monaro highway at about 7am and was so busy talking the highway pursuit Landcruiser followed him for almost 10ks before he noticed the flashing lights and pulled over. If only ‘he’ had used his POO, he could have pulled over as soon as spotted and said sorry phone just rang and probably just got a warning.

Over the last 16 years ‘mate’ has driven just over the limit 66 in a 60, 108 in a 100, 119 in a 110 zone but never more than 40 in a 40 zone. He has driven straight past many HWP cars, and ACT speed camera vans.

Other fixed cameras are usually marked or other road users (truckies are the best indication) will change their speed to let you know there is a speed trap nearby, if you use your POO (Powers of observation). You will not get done…

What about exceeding the posted limit by over 36ks and getting a warning. ‘He’ was driving a jap turbo car with a few mods, driving in Sydney (unfamiliar territory), and was followed by an unmarked car (which he noticed and mentioned to girlfriend, but it was 15 mins later and had assumed he was gone, but was just a few cars back, should have used more POO) had been driving along side black Dunnydoore ute with 2 undesirables leering at ‘his’ girlfriend for the lest few k’s. So when he pulled up alongside at the lights, turned green, and mate floored it and took it to the redline,when the ute was a blip in the mirror backed off. A few k’s later red & blue of the unmarked finally caught up and pulled ‘him’ over, asked

“What the hell was that, and how fast did he think the limit was?”

Now this is where common sense comes into play. The car looked well kept, new paint, wheels (only an inch larger that standard) with good tires, suspension only 50mm lower, big intercooler and big exhaust (street legal). So the car did not attract the cops adverse interest.

‘Mate’ was polite and said he was from out of town and was not familiar with the speed limits, thought it was a 80 zone but probably less than that. Cop said he had been following him for 10 mins and, had been driving normally then…. was doing 96 in a 60 zone he asked why. Said dudes had been hassling girlfriend and just wanted to get away from them.

He was let off with a warning.

Probably a combination of attitude and an amusing, original and true excuse so no ticket.

Same ‘mate’ was in the USA for work, one weekend drove from LA to Las Vegas, most of the other cars did 70 to 80 mph in 65 zone, so he sat on 75. Just after crossing border into Nevada ‘mate’ noticed he was now overtaking cars that had just passed him, so he slowed too. A few moments later passes a state trooper writing love letters, saved by the POO.

My long-winded point is this, if you think, watch and act politely you can bend the rules to a large extent.

You don’t have to drive a Camry at 5k’s under the limit.

You can be a rebel and really speed (over 160km/h) but only where no one else is about (you stand less chance of getting caught or killing anyone else if you make an error), and only exceed the limit by less than 10% in all other areas, unless you see something that makes you suspicious. You can drive a well maintained modified performance car, if you are pulled over just be polite and you probably won’t have to give the government a red cent. Other than the usual rego and fuel excise.

If you drive like a lunatic, oblivious to the goings on around you in an ultra low, ultra loud, fat tired, extravagance that looks like it came off a movie set or a race track. And give the cops a bit of lip.

You will reap what you sew.

[curious]

pass me a donut I'm staying in the office today, theres no point going out now

[Antisocial]

  Quote

pass me a donut I'm staying in the office today, theres no point going out now

Not true, there will always be plenty of....

  Quote

If you drive like a lunatic, oblivious to the goings on around you in an ultra low, ultra loud, fat tired, extravagance that looks like it came off a movie set or a race track. And give the cops a bit of lip.

You will reap what you sew. 

[curious]

Ok then, can I finsh my donut and go out.

[mickq]

Personally, I think POO is important.

How can anyone live without POO?

But Im a realist - most people dont use their POO at all. Its just wasted, down the drain.

I too drive above speed limits every time I drive. Worst is allegedly 220 in an 80 zone and 160 in a 50 zone. And before people get too excited, if you knew where then you wouldnt be so annoyed. The limits in those areas arent reasonably done. (Although I admit having them posted at 150+ instead may be a wee bit excessive....)

POO is everything. Without POO, I find myself in trouble. There are just a few simple rules that allow POO to enable you to drive as you should: take into account any given situation and match your driving speed to suit.

Now I agree, some of my speeds were excessive. But they were done in situations where the excessive speed would not and could not hurt others. ie it was a gamble with my own life and vehicle, and nothing else. Given that, Im all for it being my personal choice as to whether I take that risk. Just like if I choose to go racing on a track, although unlike a track there were nopeople within a kilometre or so.

Timing is everything.

But one thing we do disagree on. Being nice to cops nearly always fails. I have been pulled over dozens of times, and in my opinion, if the cops have seen you, being nice doesnt do anything except make them realise you are an easy target.

In the days of quotas and forced booking numbers, being nice will be the thing that can get you booked. Its an easy score for them and makes it easy for them to make their target for that shift. The only time Ive found being nice helps is if its just minutes before the shift change, and the cops decide to let you off rather than finish work late while they fill out the paperwork.

Im nice by nature. And as a result of that niceness, I have a string of tickets from being pulled over by cops. Hell, in Greensorough Ive literally had two cops bent over laughing after they pulled me over for 81 in a 60 zone (near the military barracks: hardly a dangerous place to do 80 at 3am in the morning). The result? Booked. Twice in 3 weeks. They saw me as an easy score.

After reading an article written by a lawyer who defends speed and alcohol related offences about 2 years ago, I changed my methods.

And since then I have had a 100% success rate in being let off from infringements after being pulled over by cops.

This compares to about a 95+% failure rate from being nice.

The simple fact is that often the cops see you doing something but have insufficient evidence to book you. In those circumstances (and in normal circumstances) they try hard to get you to self-incriminate. This is the SOLE reason they ask you questions like:

"So whats the rush?"

"Do you know what speed you were doing?"

etc

etc

They record down your answer, and its VERY likely that if you answer it in a way that indirectly agrees you were speeding that you will be booked.

Ive had dozens of chances to try different alternatives and tactics.

Its no wonder that various crooks have found out the hard way that saying nothing is the best possible thing you can do. Except for answering your name and address etc, never give anything else away. Do it nicely.

Not that Im an advocate of drink driving (Im the opposite!), but they have to be able to prove you were driving within the last 3 hours. So if the cops see you with your car damaged on the side of the road, do you think they ask you when the accident occurred to be nice? No, they ask you questions that are specifically designed to take away any arguments you may later come up with in court and to lock down the charge they are thinking of hitting you with. Answer them at your own peril. The same applies for speeding and any other potential offence.

And I know several people besides myself who have answered questions like "Whats the rush" with things like "Im late for work" or whatever, and those exact same words came back to haunt them in court when they fought the fine....even though they didnt say they were exceeeding the limit, answering that question is enough to kill their argument.

Without answering that question, the cop may have a little doubt....enough for a seasoned cop to realise if you fight it in court he may not win as their is insufficient evidence. So as a result he will either try to get you for something else or else just warn you.

Dont be a smart arse. If you are, they will undoubtedly ping you for something. (even a new car can be found to be unroadworthy if they look hard enough). But make it clear you are not going to self incriminate, and you are not stupid, but on the other hand are reasonable and not trying to be a *beep*.

Example: I got followed by a cop. I was doing 120 in a 60 zone. He was in an SS and couldnt keep up. (He stated that he was doing 100 with it floored and I was pulling away from him! I had to bit my tongue and not tell him that perhaps he should get a faster car, something a cop said to me in my old car!).

He pulled me over. Did the licence check. Asked the usual questions "Do you know what speed you were doing"? Etc. Then handed my license back and said "have a good night". After he turned away he quickly turned back and said "So what was the rush anyway?". I said "I wasnt speeding".

He groaned, rolled his eyes and said I would get a ticket in the mail for 83 in a 60 zone. I said on what grounds was he booking me, as he said I was pulling away, so how did he judge my speed since he obviously couldnt match it? I made it very clear I know the ways in which they are able to determine speed with reasonable certainty and I know that this situation didnt meet that criteria.

Dont get me wrong: If Im done fair and sqaure (eg LIDAR, radar etc) I take it on the chin. But I have to abide by the laws and so do they, so if the situation indicates they may not have sufficient grounds to book me, I let them know it. Seasoned cops know people sometimes get off because the cops didnt quite have enough to make a charge stick - even if both the cop and the perp know the perp was doing wrong.

I was ready for his attempt to get me to self-incriminate. You see both he and I knew he didnt have enough evidence from 200m+ away, so he then depended on his attempt to catch me off guard when he thought I assumed the problem was over and I was on my way and had dropped my defences. But he didnt know Im no longer that naive.

And I didnt receive a thing. Simply because we both knew without clear proof of my speed and without my admitting I was speeding or in a rush, he didnt have a leg to stand on as it would be easy for me to argue reasonable doubt.

I have zero doubt that had I answered the question about the rush, he would have recorded it and booked me, just as nearly every other cop has in the past when I have been nice, upfront and honest.

The bottom line is know the law. Know what they can and cant do. If you get caught fair and square, then cop it. If you know they dont have enough to ping you, then dont sit down and be nice and give them everything they need as they will nearly always ping you. In this day and age in Vic, its worth their while to ping just about everybody as the idea of discretion has gone out the window. Now its often down to "Do I have enough proof to make this guy look guilty in court?".

Be smart. Its is job to try to catch you out. Its your job to try to ensure you dont get a ticket, or at least at a minimum to try to ensure you dont volunteer to give him everything he needs to book you when you dont have to do so.

I hope one day they properly restore discretionary powers to the police, but until then I play very defensively, and as my past 10 or so pull-over events have proven, its the most likely way to ensure nothing like a ticket follows.

Use common sense. Be safe. Drive with regards to other people for the conditions you find yourself in as there is no reason you driving shoudl negatively effect others. Be nice, but for your own sake dont volunteer for a ticket if you find yourself in that situation.

Edited 29/12/03 01:42 PM by mickq

[curious]

well back into the office again, any more donuts????

[BA_Turbs]

  mickq said:

No, they ask you questions that are specifically designed to take away any arguments you may later come up with in court and to lock down the charge they are thinking of hitting you with. Answer them at your own peril. The same applies for speeding and any other potential offence.

You knw all those TV shows where they say "You have the right to remain silent........"?

They aren't kidding.

Other than stating your name and address, and producing your licence, you aren't obliged to do much. (Except blow in to the PBT, you don't HAVE to, but if you don't...........)

However you claming up and not saying $hit when I am being nice to you indicates to me that you want to play law, law is my area, so here's the ticket, you don't like it, go to court, you seem to think you know what you are doing.

You have got a big, fat "F" on the attitude test.

As I have said in the past, in over two years as one of the queens men, I have NEVER issued a speeding ticket, and don't plan on it, however if you think you are $hit hot, you just may change those plans.

BA_Turbs

[100%]

  BA_Turbs said:

As I have said in the past, in over two years as one of the queens men, I have NEVER issued a speeding ticket, and don't plan on it, however if you think you are $hit hot, you just may change those plans.

BA_Turbs

So how do I get you transfered to my side of town??

[crisso]

  BA_Turbs said:

  mickq said:

No, they ask you questions that are specifically designed to take away any arguments you may later come up with in court and to lock down the charge they are thinking of hitting you with. Answer them at your own peril. The same applies for speeding and any other potential offence.

You knw all those TV shows where they say "You have the right to remain silent........"?

They aren't kidding.

Other than stating your name and address, and producing your licence, you aren't obliged to do much. (Except blow in to the PBT, you don't HAVE to, but if you don't...........)

However you claming up and not saying $hit when I am being nice to you indicates to me that you want to play law, law is my area, so here's the ticket, you don't like it, go to court, you seem to think you know what you are doing.

You have got a big, fat "F" on the attitude test.

As I have said in the past, in over two years as one of the queens men, I have NEVER issued a speeding ticket, and don't plan on it, however if you think you are $hit hot, you just may change those plans.

BA_Turbs

my question is this - how much of an attitude difference is there when comparing a Highway Boy and a general duties officer?

[plonky]

Everything that YCL has enunciated is exactly what I've been trying to say all this time.

Everyone exceeds the limit. Hell, even I do when I'm not at work, but it's a big risk I play. These days I can guarantee that I will get written up by one of the 'new breed of anti corruptible uni students'.

I have always said, "watch what the trucks do" "if you're going to get caught it will be in the CBD, speed zones approaching and receding from a town or a school zone" " get a mobile phone car kit or pull over" " and modify the car as much as you want but keep it legal"

You may not get out of a ticket by being polite BUT you may get a ticket of a lower bracket ( Under 15 instead of Over 15)

Yes it is true that you statutory obligations compel you to provide your name, place of abode, a signature sample if required and details relating to the garaging of the vehicle.

If a speed is radar detected/checked speedometer detected etc an officer achieves nothing extra by asking a question relating to the driving of the vehicle. I have seen some lawyers make a big thing about it but the fact is that the proofs of the offence have already been satisfied and any denial or admission only serves to make you write more on the ticket.

As an example, I say the same thing all the time (easier to remember) and put the allegation to the driver (I have checked your speed at 121 in a 100 zone or you were senn to drive the the Stop sign at Hill and March St without stopping etc)

Whatever they say I record. Invariably it is a denial, abuse or an admission. Any lack of response by the driver is not fatal to a prosecution.

As far as attitude goes, there is one section of the Police that come into contact with the broadest spectrum of the community every day, and that is the Highway Patrol. Their role is proactive and as such it is their job to detect traffic offences and criminal offences. Some HWP (like myself) like to hang around the peasant and Housing Commission areas to go after Disq/Canc/Susp/Unlic drivers in Unreg/Unins cars as well as street racing hoodlums etc. General traffic offences such as phones, Stop signs unroadworthy cars etc are also a speciality.

Others prefer to be on the highway looking for speeding cars and trucks. Ultimately as long as we are proactive we are doing our job.

This contrasts completely with what the media would like the community to believe. The Police are not there to serve (implying that were should just give cautions and help) We are there to enforce law and order, protect life and property and ensure the free flow of traffic (someone tell the car haters at the RTA about that last one)

So HWP Police are very much more motivated to go and find law berakers whereas the GD's just react going from job to job, domestic to domestic, poo fight to poo fight.