Engine Failure!

[ratter]

using the kfc example, KFC supplied the goods, cooked the goods, stored the goods and then served the goods, in this case the customer supplied the goods to be modified, a part that was not touched as part of the modification process (unless the op has not told us something) and now some expect compensation for something that may not be the tuners fault.

OK serious question, how much extra would you be prepared to pay for on top of a tune for the tuner to to a check of the car for possible issues?

Are you prepared to pay an extra half hour labour or up to a few hours labour to remove bumper bars to check cooler pipes, remove spark plugs to do a compression and leak down test, possibly an oil pressure test, may be even remove a gearbox to check how much life is left in a clutch.

We recently refused to dyno tune a member from this forum's car because the car needed coil packs, had a screw hanging out of a rear tyre, brake line rubbing against a wheel rim on the rear and the centre tailshaft bearing support was split, apparently something broke on this car last week. Most of this was picked up with some of the other work we were doing, but would it have been my responsibility if something had gone wrong on my dyno on the first run?

[Bellato]

Your right, The KFC example is the entire supply chain covered, but I only used it for the principle in that we go to places expecting that we're going to get the desired outcome we go there for, because we assume they know what they're doing.

And as I have said we are not fully aware of every aspect of this situation and I'm far from a mechanic so I'm not saying it is the tuners fault, just recognising that IF it is then they probably could be negligently liable.

I don't know, I've never had a tune and this is my first turbo car, but Im the kind of person that uses forums like this to find out what can go wrong and would ask you to check it, and as a good tuner I would hope you could recommend anything they may need to be check prior to a tune based on kms, year, model etc. But I'm a logical person and if it was something that could throw an error code or something that could be made aware to the tuner before coming on full boost then as a customer this is something I'd expect them to pick up before major damage occurs, but your right not everything can be checked and I agree with you completely. If those things you picked up on that car are something noticeable on driving the car or on starting the run then yes I would hope (being experts on these cars) that you would be able to identify issues like these (as you clearly did) before damage can be caused, but as for things which are undetectable and don't throw codes then no, you can't expect anymore as a customer.

My point still stands. I don't know the full extent of this issue and I don't know how detectable it would be until it does blow off and overboost. I'm just saying that IF and only IF this was something that should have been detected before this occurred and there was some fault on the behalf of the tuner then yes they can be negligently liable.

By the way don't take any of this to heart because I haven't heard a bad thing come out of Pitlane and if I did hear a story like this come from your workshop then yea I doubt you guys would be at fault cause you clearly know your stuff. But by the sounds of it they aren't a well known tuner and if never having worked on these cars the tuner should have taken precautions to ensure nothing major could happen and if they were worried about tuning the car then they should have offered a disclaimer to the OP so he could have made the choice to go with them or not

[The Jizard]

And some customers lie... Had 2 at our workshop in the last week, first one told us his oil light was flashing intermittently when driving, car was booked in for a service and he came to pick it up once done, he went drive out, he started the car then he came running into the workshop ranting and raving asking if oil had been put in his car because the oil pressure light stayed on which hadn't happened on the after service checks, and oil most certainly was put in all 8.5 litres of it, then he started going off his tree claiming that it must have happened when it was serviced, he kept going until it was pointed out that he had told us in the morning that the oil light had a problem, he then drove off reluctantly pissed off.

Another one was a car booked in for a headunit swap, had some problem with lights in the climate control, pulled the dash apart and replaced the unit and put it back together, customer paid and drove out to only come back 5 mins later raving on that now his climate control lights didn't work and they had prior to doing the head unit, problem for him was I had taken a photo prior to the changeover for my own reasons but worked out well as evidence against the lies.

Now ask yourself this, would you want to be a mechanic, tuner or anything like that knowing that a customer may know of a problem on their car, they may not tell you about it and then it breaks on the dyno, is it fair the dyno operator has to fix it out of his own pocket?

PS. This isn't an accusation on the OP, this is merely to demonstrate a point.

[ratter]

I should add, a while back we had a owner manufactured and fitted boost pipe blow off the car and launched itself across the shop after hitting the dyno cabinet arm, this prompted us to check the legal aspect of this in case their was some damage caused or an injury to somebody. We were informed that if the car was presented like that, it was not our responsibility. We quizzed them about the possibility of doing and charging for a pre dyno inspection, we were then told that if we carried out this inspection and gave it the all clear and then something went wrong, even if it was not visibly evident, that there was a chance that we could then be held responsible as we had given it the all clear.

[Bellato]

No I understand completely mate, from your perspective you must deal with a lot of C*** and yea you can't trust people, but your clearly smart enough to realise how people are and take the necessary precautions to stop people trying to rip you off. And I bet if you had a dodgy car come in who wanted to run a ridiculous amount of boost and you said it was unsafe and they said go ahead anyway you would get them to put something in writing saying that your not liable for anything that could go wrong.

But you need to understand that as customers who know nothing to the extent you guys know that if there was something you could have stopped from breaking we'd at least expect a phone call asking if we want you to fix it or not.

Again I'll reiterate that I don't know the full situation, but as the law stands, if the tuner is at fault then yes they could be liable under negligence and that's an avenue the OP should consider

[LAZY6]

I was always under the impression there's no such thing as warranty when you have your car or eng dyno'd,

if you the owner are willing to let your car/eng be put through that treatment (stock or heavily modified) then you are held responsible if it blows it's brains out.

[Kosij]

Also isn't the actuator hose just pushed on?!?!?

I put zip ties on all my small hoses to prevent this from happening because having the compressor cover and actuator hose just pushed on isn't sufficient when adding boost. And my actuator hose popped of and I seen 27psi luckily I had better luck then you...... I would think that who ever fitted the "turbo upgrade" that they would have made sure all fittings were secure.

[retro-xr6t]

I think everyone is a little worked up on this. I for one am not blaming the mechanic outright, tuners/mechanics get unfair blame for anything that goes wrong and cop a lot of sh*t from customers trying to get something for nothing.

I think (although I can only speak for myself) what is trying to be said is that /should/ this tuner be at fault for this then he should help this guy out. If he's not and it is just a case of bad luck which does happen, then sorry bud but that's how it goes.

Honestly if the hose just blew off then that's just bad luck but if it isn't because of the hose and it's through incompetence/negligence then it's another story and people should be told so others don't suffer damages from the same place.

Leigh

[Never had any say Panda]

But by the sounds of it they aren't a well known tuner and if never having worked on these cars the tuner should have taken precautions to ensure nothing major could happen and if they were worried about tuning the car then they should have offered a disclaimer to the OP so he could have made the choice to go with them or not

Oddly enough this comment annoys me..

Sticking your car on a Dyno you are taking a risk.,. Pushing an engine beyond the specifications of the manufacturer is playing russian roulette.. And with fords it does seem that sometimes it could be 1 bullet in a revolver.. But with some it's like holding an automatic pistol against your head because you don't know any better.

Tuners of all sorts are varying talents.. But in saying that the tuner in question probably still knows a sh*tload more then the average Joe.. But expecting him to inspect every car fully before a dyno run up? When he's probably already pushed for time?

Someone compared it to Pre-flight checks a pilot does.. Which (yes I have flown alot of planes) is mostly visual inspections anyway.. Ailerons move.. Brakes work. Rudder works.. No water in the fuel. Engine has Oil.. Most tuners probably do these little visual checks and don't even realise it.. Doesn't mean things can't go wrong.. How do they check the integrity of the pistons.. Or rods.. Or oil pump gears.. Should they check every single hose fitting (because we all know how easily O-rings bust off)..

No I'm sorry this happened to the OP.. And yes if you can prove genuine negligence on behalf of the tuner go for it.. But I stand by the YOU PAY TO PLAY!!! Tuners can't be held responsible for car they know nothing about.. especially when people try and save a buck by fitting stuff themselves.. Ratters probably seen a bunch of cases where people's self fitted intercooler pipes have popped off on Dyno runs..

[Impellor]

I should add, a while back we had a owner manufactured and fitted boost pipe blow off the car and launched itself across the shop after hitting the dyno cabinet arm, this prompted us to check the legal aspect of this in case their was some damage caused or an injury to somebody. We were informed that if the car was presented like that, it was not our responsibility. We quizzed them about the possibility of doing and charging for a pre dyno inspection, we were then told that if we carried out this inspection and gave it the all clear and then something went wrong, even if it was not visibly evident, that there was a chance that we could then be held responsible as we had given it the all clear.

Mick, I personally think that by adding in the option of pre dyno inspections would provide you with a competitive advantage. It would only be a matter of doing the sums. I as a consumer would be more than happy to pay extra to have the assurance that I know I will be driving away in my car. It is what all the Electrical stores offer, with their extended warranties. So people have become accustomed to these add ons. It would simply be a matter of asking the question. Factoring in the associated costs. The customer wins, and you win. We all win. Of coarse, when someone wants a monster, this option would not be feasible.

Cheers

Edited 02/08/12 11:48 PM by Impellor