Dale@CHE Member 52 Member For: 15y 11m 13d Posted 07/05/12 12:37 PM Share Posted 07/05/12 12:37 PM yeh probably a little over the top there,400rwkw on petrol is not a problem and easy, but 400rwkw on E85 is on the limit of a 044 plain and simple,FYI 4th gear in the ZF auto is not 1:1 its actually 1.14:1 and 5th is .97:1 so no matter what gear you run it in it will never be 1:1 like 3rd was in the 4 speed and 4th in the manuals is.. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IH8TOADS Silver Donating Members 3,618 Member For: 19y 3m 11d Gender: Male Location: OZ Posted 07/05/12 02:37 PM Share Posted 07/05/12 02:37 PM (edited) Interesting thread. IDC is often over looked and Dale makes some good points...obviously educated ones. When I first looked into ID1000's in mid 2010 I was interested to know what IDC they would run on e85 at high RPM and boost, so I knocked up a theoretical calculator in excel based on the ford speed density algorithm, ethanol content of the fuel, desired lambda, inj flow rates etc etc. If you keep the speed density values stock then you have to fudge the high slope which is why the flow rates are different to published data (indicative only). As you can see the difference between 5000rpm and 6200rpm is huge and I think Dale eluded to this. I rev my BA out to 6500 (not always intentionally)....and im sure many others do as well.I use this calculator to give me a rough idea of what I can and cant do in regards to boost and RPM on certain ethanol blends. Power is largely dictated by spark advance so I tend to not quote power outputs. With the deka 60's for example, you dont want to be exceeding 18psi in a BA on e40.You can data log FUEL_PW_CLKTIC via your xcal and this relates to the Injector Pulsewidth. If you log RPM you can also calculate IDC. Only problem is FUEL_PW_CLKTIC is measured in Clock Ticks and I am not confident in the conversion to ms. The American fords and the Aussies use this in very different ways. Dale it would be good if you could do some logs of FUEL_PW_CLKTIC and RPM and compare to you DD equipment so we can work out an equation! My own street testing shows that at 60.4 inHG MAP and 5000rpm my IDC using the FUEL_PW_CLKTIC = ms technique = 44.6% with ID1000's. My 'theoretical' according to my spreadsheet is 48.6% so its pretty close. This tells me its a reasonably good indicator of IDC. If I logged lambda and plugged that in accurately I may have gotten closer......?So if anyone is curious use get your xcal and go do some logs and use the following equation to 'indicate' IDC = ((FUEL_PW_CLKTIC*1000)*RPM)/1200Cheersedit the G302 flow values look like what I was using with a 4.5bar reg. Edited 07/05/12 02:44 PM by IH8TOADS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Donating Members 1,205 Member For: 13y 5m 3d Gender: Male Location: Burwood, NSW Posted 07/05/12 04:55 PM Share Posted 07/05/12 04:55 PM So for example, we usually see 400-420wkws from a single Bosche 044 fuel pump on 98octane, for the same 400-420 on E85 we like to use a pump that has a minimum of 40% more flow than the 044.We use and recomend Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump in replace of an 044, this pump is rated to 1000hp, compared to the 044 at 650hp... so alot more flow to cover the requirments of E85.Fuel injectors may need to be upgraded also.We have found 60lb Seimens injectors to reach their maximum at around 400wkws on 98, and about 350wkws on E85 when using the stock BA - FG rail and regulator. An adjsutable fuel reg can be used to increase the base fuel pressure, but always consult the injectors max specs for operating fuel presure.80lb Seimens injectors are a great replacement and run happily to 450wkws in the standard rail and reg, on E85. Above that power level we go to I.Ds and Expurts of 1000 - 2000cc, after market fuel rail and adjustable fuel regulator.just read this in one of the other threads that someone has lifted from what looks like rapids site who is affiliated with cms.so it seems like they tend to agree that above 400+ you should be looking at a bigger pump.what is of concern is that they say 80lb seimens will happily run 450rwkw.looking at the tune that cms has done for veva on dales dyno it is starting to run out of injector so its hardly what I would consider a safe tune at that power level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomber Carnage on the Garage Floor Donating Members 3,994 Member For: 14y 5m 7d Gender: Male Location: Gold Coast Posted 07/05/12 08:48 PM Share Posted 07/05/12 08:48 PM ^^^ just put some 15" wheels on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyfrd Turboless Donating Members 5,992 Member For: 13y 7m 21d Gender: Male Location: Geelong, Victoria Posted 07/05/12 11:18 PM Share Posted 07/05/12 11:18 PM Lol far out. Can't take no for an answer jet haha.I can say now I'd rather have a fuel pump over the top for the job than maxing out the poor little pump. Its just logical. Well, one would think anyway.Think possum will have a lot of reading to catch up to speed if he hasn't been reading lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
possum Donating Members 553 Member For: 15y 4m 26d Gender: Male Posted 08/05/12 12:19 AM Share Posted 08/05/12 12:19 AM Ive read it all and yes in theory the 044 shouldnt be able to flow enough to support over 400rwkw on e85 but we have tuned several cars to 400 and beyond with a single 044 pump391kw fg f6404kw fg f6 ute403kw bf xr6t457kw fg xr6t430kw fg f6 ute 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie2256 Donating Members 7,441 Member For: 15y 10m 27d Gender: Male Location: SE Melbourne Posted 08/05/12 12:37 AM Share Posted 08/05/12 12:37 AM Are you willing to post some graphs up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
possum Donating Members 553 Member For: 15y 4m 26d Gender: Male Posted 08/05/12 02:08 AM Share Posted 08/05/12 02:08 AM I will try and post some graphs up, the f6 ute with 430kw ran 133mph, fg xr6t with 457kw ran 136mph.All the cars I previously mentioned run standard fuel rails & regs, single 044's with battery voltage so at the most 14ishv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Jeturbo Bob the Freaking Builder Donating Members 10,810 Member For: 15y 1m 6d Gender: Female Location: SA Posted 08/05/12 02:16 AM Share Posted 08/05/12 02:16 AM Proof in the pudding mph doesn't lie!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie2256 Donating Members 7,441 Member For: 15y 10m 27d Gender: Male Location: SE Melbourne Posted 08/05/12 03:06 AM Share Posted 08/05/12 03:06 AM any over 400 with 12v? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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