Have Your Say On The Road Safety Debate

[sixfan]

Last weeks NT news headlines:

"Man gets fined for driving too slow"

God I love it here........

Oh yeah, I think I got my photo taken during a moment of distraction...

probably $100 fine...points? what are points?

I mean, I REALLY love it here!

[aniken]

Road toll sparks call for driver reward scheme

By Malcolm Brown

January 6, 2004

Double demerit points were given to NSW motorists more than 47,000 times during Operation Safe Arrival, between December 19 last year and midnight on New Year's Eve.

But despite the police effort, which resulted in 13 per cent more motorists booked for speeding than in the 2002-03 holiday period and a 14 per cent rise in bookings for non-speeding offences, 22 people died on the state's roads, six more than in the same period last year.

During Operation Safe Arrival, 31,350 speeding infringements were issued. There were 15,720 bookings for non-speeding infringements.

The State Opposition called yesterday for more police on the highways and the introduction of a scheme to reward good driving with discounts on motorists' fees, in the wake of the holiday deaths on the state's roads.

The Opposition's roads spokesman, Don Page, said that there was an "over-reliance" on fixed speed cameras which might make people slow down when they saw the signs announcing their presence but did nothing to stop them speeding up afterwards.

Mr Page was also concerned about police numbers on the roads during the holiday period, saying people had told him they had travelled considerable distances without seeing a police officer.

The reward system, which had been adopted in principle by the Opposition, would give discounts on such things as licence and green-slip insurance fees.

The NRMA yesterday announced its support for the reward system. A spokesperson said: "A merit program might be beneficial for drivers where good driving behaviour, as evidenced by lack of penalties over a certain period, results in reduced motoring costs. Examples could include discounted CTP green slips or substantial discounts on silver or gold licences."

The Minister for Roads, Carl Scully, said yesterday that there would be "a detailed analysis" of the road toll, including over the holiday, to determine what new measures were needed.

He said he was "delighted" by the presence of police on the highways over the Christmas-New Year period. Normal police numbers had been deployed for the holiday operation.

Mr Scully did not think an incentive scheme for good driving was appropriate.

"In a system where the vast majority of people are already complying with our traffic laws, almost everybody would get the benefit of discounted licences," he said. "I don't see how that would make a difference to the road toll."

This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/01/05/...3267968949.html

[cdm]

It is a proven fact that humans are more responsive to positive reinforcement (I.e rewarding good behaviour) than negative reinforcement (punishing bad behaviour).

A reward scheme sounds like a step in the right direction however, how about increased driver training? Removing fixed ‘greed’ cameras which cause the public to resent the police even though it is not their problem. How about spending some of the hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue on fixing up roads and reducing black spots? Implement compulsory retests every 4 years for drivers under 50 then every 2 years till 65 then every year thereafter? Have different registration categories to make registering an old Kingswood cost more than a new Falcon, maybe this will get some of the older cars of the road, reducing pollution and increasing safety as only a fool would argue that this car could stop and turn as well as even a standard XT falcon (obviously categories for antiques and classics etc would need to be created with specific criteria so Joe Blogs can still take out his old 190SL on weekends). How about regular medical checkups? In the aviation industry a normal private pilot must undertake a class 2 medical inspection every 4 years until they are 40 or 50 then its every 2 years. Commercial pilots must undertake a class one medical every 2 years (might be every year, can’t remember). How about applying this to the roads? Taxi/limo/bus/truck drivers need a class one medical every two years and the rest of us every four (I seem to remember a bus driver passing out at the wheel not too long ago)?

And finally, how about getting rid of this ridiculous 3km/h limit in Victoria. Apart from the fact that ADR states speedo’s need only be accurate within 10% there is the research of Dr Alan Buckingham who says, “most safe drives speed” and the US research that indicates, “the safest drivers are those who exceed the posted limit moderately, and which finds the most dangerous are those driving well under or over the limit” (Wheels, Jan 04, p30). I seem to recall reading somewhere that the safest figure was within 20% of the speed of the rest of the traffic.

Clearly the current government tactics have not worked as evidenced by the Christmas road toll and the fact that the rate of deaths per 10 000 vehicles has not changed in the last few years despite the implementation of greed cameras.

Ok....I’m climbing down off this damn soapbox......next?

[Guest XR8GN3]

I think the governments gotten enough out of my own pocket for speeding fines since ive been driving and for what?

To slow me down , prevent me from causing accidents and reduce the road toll bulls**t if it wasnt for me driving like I do I probably would have an accident by now. Dont get me wrong people Im not sayin speeding cant kill but if you know your cars limit then you know how to handle yourself in a sticky situation better then the next guy in is Toyota Camry doing 5km below the speed limit everywere he goes! :banghead:

I think they should concentrate more on the inexperience drivers and the quality of Sydneys roads.

[sixfan]

Hmmm,

I'd rather see a 18 year old driving flat out in an old kingswood 202 (160 Kph) than flat out in a xr6T (230 Kph). Generally people who drive old cars drive them because they can't afford new ones and I don't think we should be slugging them extra. Environmentally, what do you think causes more pollution, an old car driving around or the manufacturing processes to make a new one? As for medicals in GA, they don't really inspire my confidence, The Doc just does some basic tests for diabeties ect and asks you a heap of questions, "Do you suffer blackouts?"" err...no." If you want to stop people speeding, put speed limiters in ALL cars set to 110 Kph. introduce a nation wide law, every kph over the limit is one demerit point and put a Killowat per kilogram limit on cars available in Austalia.

My solution is to raise the limit on appropriate country roads to say 140 Kph and nail anyone who goes over that speed. The 50 Kph limit in suburbs is stupid. Of couse it's safer to do 50 as opposed to 60, for the same reason its safer to do 40 or 30 or even beter not drive at all! How about mandatory suspension of licences for those who cause accidents through negligence instead of focusing on those who drive a bit fatser and may never cause an accident in thier lives?

[curious]

Unfortunately sixfan the rules are governed for the dumbest of drivers so they can transit in a safe manner for thier pee brain. I can and most of the people here can safely drive at those speeds but our grannies cannot, nor our unexperienced kiddies. They see a speed limit like that and will do it, dying on the next corner. I would say 70% of drivers out there are not thinking drivers and are drone drivers. People have to look to where they are driving, covering the brakes in potentially hazardous ares, Looking through the corners using the sytem of car control.

Then there is the "are you drving to fast for the unexpected". You cannot deny this as it is scientifically proven that the faster you go the less time you have to react and the greater the stopping distance.

Pros and cons for everything.

I shuddered before I entered this thread and now I know why. Most comments here have a valid point but are mostly biased. Take it from me I work both sides of the fence and investigate accidents. Speed might not contribute an accident but it does kill.

The whole speed camera thing is going a little too far. You will not convince the Govt otherwise, so smarten up people and find out where they are and avoid them, its not a hard task.

Increase the speed limit to that is definatley not the answer. people will then sit on 150.

[cdm]

Good point sixfan about how producing more cars may produce more pollution than the older ones. I would be very interested to see what the registration process is in Japan. I am under the impression that they have some incentive to get rid of cars more than 10 years old hence why we have so many R32’s and R33’s as grey imports with relatively low kilometres. Producing more vehicles will not only support our local automotive industry and reduce vehicle emission but also leads to economies of scale through greater demand for new vehicles. With increased demand there follows an increased willingness to supply, in the long run reducing the price to consumers. The automotive industry will also then have more funds available to them to develop new technology hence cars will become safer and more efficient sooner. I agree that it may be unfair to remove older cars because then the youth would not be able to afford them, however as the market becomes saturated with a newer fleet the second hand price (following the new retail price) of cars will be lower. Therefore, instead of purchasing a 30 year old car with drum brakes and leaf springs they may be able to get an 8 year old car with Disc brakes, ABS, IRS etc etc. Sure, some may miss out, but I see so many decrepit old unroadworthy cars everyday that are an outright danger to the driver/passenger/other road users and pedestrians.

I have had my Private Pilots licence since I was sixteen and in my experience can say that regular medicals and bi-annual flight reviews (in the case of PPL) and annually for Commercial pilots (CPL) are a good thing. You are correct sixfan in saying that a class 2 medical does not involve too much however it still involves eyesight and hearing tests as well as a long string of questions (blackouts? Chest pain? Migraines? Drug use? Diziness? Etc) in addition to checking for full movement of all limbs etc. I have seen people driving with eye patches, neck braces (head check??) and even a leg in a cast. As I stated earlier a medical check and skills check every four years would be suitable for drivers under 50 or so.

I think taxi/bus/truck drivers should undergo a class one medical and bi-annual licence checks. The class one involves everything from class two as well as an ECG a better audio test and a visit to an ophthalmologist. More regular test must be conducted for older people as they begin to suffer hearing and sight loss (Prespycusis and Prespyopia).

If speed kills how come all pilots/race car drivers etc etc are not dead. It’s a matter of driver education and training. Better roads, newer cars, trained and educated drivers will reduce the death toll on our roads. Considering the current method of nazi like policing of tax paying citizens isn’t working, surely another angle is worth consideration. The government are turning drivers into mindless drones unaware of their surroundings because they are too busy staring at the speedo or checking every damned car parked on the street for greed camera’s as well as searching for fixed cameras.

Cheers,

Chris

[X-WING]

I asked myself the question when I ordered my new T esp after reading all these posts do I really need the T for the extra 5 grand and I came up with the answer its such a nice car to drive under the right foot from point a to point b im not buying it because its fast or quick to 100km

On a trip to Coffs Harbour from the Gold Coast last year in a double point weekend I counted 9 cameras 11 patrol cars and 2 d cars. They love sitting in the overtaking lanes to, arn't these lanes designed for safe overtaking ,

A 4 hr trip felt like 6 hrs , as it felt like I spent all my time checking the cruise settings and the speedo more than ever and that was in a EL 6

[sixfan]

Curious:

You are of course correct about the faster you go the worse off you are if you are in a collision. I currently live in the NT and as you are aware, there is an open speed limit here and I'd say 98% of the people on the roads are doing 140 or less. You get booked for poor driving not "speeding". Just pointing out that most people will act in a resonable way (drive to the conditions) if you trust them. Personally, I don't think 140 is that fast.

Chris,

A fellow pilot! I've had my licence for 12 years and also fly hangliders (much cheaper!) I would suggest medicals are a good idea for drivers, but I'd only make those with an impairment that may effect thier driving undertake them, living out in the boonies it's pretty hard for a lot of Australians to get to a Doc most of the time....

I'm afraid I don't agree with removing old cars from our roads, an annual rego check (over the "pits" as in the ACT) prunes out most of the dangerous cars and as long as the vehicle is properly maintained I don't think they pose a significant danger compared to the new cars.

My 57 jag for instance is fitted with 4w disc brakes and can out stop many newer cars. I think the hyundai / starlet (ect) plauge is doing pretty much as you suggest anyway, Why buy a 3 year old falcon for $14,000 when you can get a new car?

I just like old cars I guess....

[cvanxr]

Over the Christmas break I did about 2500km. A trip to Melbourne just before Christmas & then to Canberra for Christmas. Now this was supposed to be during the time that police were out blitzing, double demerits etc. During my entire trip I counted 4 police cars. This was on the Hume both Vic & NSW combined. Maybe I was just lucky.

What I did see of lunatic drivers still makes me cringe. One "p" plater did a u turn over the 10 metre wide median strip to pull out into the left lane in front of me. I don't think they saw me (with headlights on in daytime) or just did not appreciate how quickly things happen at 110+. I do alot of country & freeway driving & it was obvious to me that alot of the traffic had no idea about highway driving.

I freely admit that I spend a large percentage of my trips cruising above the posted limits, (not in towns) & if I get booked that is my problem. I have 12 points on my licence. (looking for lots of wood to touch...) The police enforce the law no matter how stupid some may be.

I hate the new 50km limits, but I try to stick to it & can see the reasoning for it in some sububan areas (not all). Outside of city/towns I think the limits should be increased.

In my opinion the majority of speed cameras are now a cash cow and have nothing to do with safety.

Anyway to finish I think that the key is more driver education. I have done a couple of advanced driving courses and was amazed at how much I learnt. Lots of fun too.

Yes speed will kill if there is a sudden stop at the end. Improve the driving training and education and there should be fewer sudden stops.