F6 310 Vs 335 Gt Raceway

[01txr]

A flat 4 or 6 is not a inline 4 or 6 it's a horizontally opposed engine if any thing it is closer to a v than and inline.

I admit I'm no expert and maybe whatever bosch has quoted is more correct and I should choose my wording more carefully.

I was trying to get across mostly that the i6 under square ling stroke engine could never be as smooth as a over square short stroke engine that has 2 more ignitions per revelution.

V12 or any engine that has more ignition cycles will usually be a smother engine due to it's ignition pulses.

Each engine will differ pending how well the counterweighted balancing is designed along with quality of materials used and valve timing and tuning.

Yes you have a point, v8's are cheaper to build than v12's w12's due to less parts but in saying that a 4 or a 6 should be cheaper again yet the v8 is the choice.

A top line v8 race engine is not cheap and people do have money just look at the twin turbo lambo's throughout you tube, some extremely tuff examples but still they are not quicker than a well sorted v8.

On the other hand due to there design they will toast a v8 at high revs hi speed what they where designed for.

Every engine has it's design purpose weather it's a low revving torque engine for hauling or a high revving engine for high speed.

The ford i6 is great for what it is in standard form. It does not need to have it's guts revved out to get it going allowing it to nit wear out as quick as a engine you have to rev.

A good example is a na ford 6 v's a na skyline 6

You have to bounce the skyline off the tacho to be competitive with a ford 6.

Street driving is so much better for the ford but track where you are revving the crap out of each the skyline will be the better choice.

Its all where the efficiency of engine design works best.

A squared or over square v8 falls in the middle of most designs when compared with same capacity a long stroked 6 will develop more low down torque but won't have the top end the v8 has and a short stroke v12 won't have the low down that a v8 has but will have the power up top the v8 lacks.

This would be a reason why the v8 is chosen over others as it is the closest thing to both senarios.

However all this changes with different set ups, turbo verse sc, short stroke v's long stroke engine capacities and numerous other things.

The i6 looses don't low due to spool, the v8 gains low down with help of sc.

The i6 is not safe to rev high the coyote is that's the main reason why the coyote wins.

Then you have the extra 1l of capacity as well.

If the coyote had a long stroke small bore and cast crank it would be closer in performance.

With the sc and the extra stroke larger capacity it would turn tyres all gears but loose it's top end. It would be poo as it would be torque limited so it didn't rip the driveline from the chassis and was safe to drive.

Same would go for the i6 if you where able to take the bore out to over square it would rev and make big power but it would need a very strong crank it would also improve on the capacity. Only bad thing would be it would be spastic when boost came on and would also be limited for safety.

In the end they have been built and the f6 is unlucky not to have what the coyote has.

Turbo i6 torque works and so does v8 horsepower sc.

[MrBean]

And AGAIN I never said the Ford Inline-6 is a smoother motor, just pointing out to Bean that while the coyote is smoother than the Ford I6, the same rule doesn't apply to all other Inline-6 (or V12s, Flat-12 etc).

Gotcha, Mate, then we're on the same page

I still luv the Ford I6 though, a very balsy engine with the turbo, especially when enhanced with a few goodies.....just a pity about it's reliability at sustained higher rpm operation.....but, then again, we're not all race-drivers....

Good discussion going here, thanx all!

Edited 18/12/10 09:33 PM by MrBean

[01txr]

Hope this picture above works.first time trying to add picture using iPhone If not disregard this post.

That is my i6 rod & piston, have you noticed how it has tried to make it self shorter by

Making the beam disappear.

It to doesn't like being thrown so far in one direction and smashed back in the opposite direction also with other axis forces and harmonics at same time from the poorly designed cheap crank.

It broke and I only was just touching the gas pedal.

I bet we won't see to many of the coyote rods like this.

[Guest XR09]

No. With the revs the Coyote will achieve, We will see valves and seats. Springs and cams as well as rockers going south. Wonder how much a top end rebuild will be worth. V8 super car is about $200,000

Ya play you pay. And I reckon the Coyote will be a hell of a lot to rebuild. Or to be made to withstand the power it seems it so easily achieves.

Edited 20/12/10 04:22 AM by XR09

[MrBean]

At least with V8's, if we keep rpm's below 7krpm, we should not have to many issues with valve-train. Plus, the bottom end will be pretty comfy at those rpm levels

Of course, on any engine, once you go past 7krpm, valvesprings become a big problem - they fatigue like crazy, especially after 7.5k.....so good to keep 7k and below......

@ 01txr: Oops, looking at that rod, seems you made to much torque low down in the rpm scale.... what was your tune like?

Either that, or possibly detonation.

Of course, having a soft torque-curve at lower rpm's always a good thing, for any engine....

Edited 20/12/10 04:39 AM by MrBean

[rad]

have to say I'd have the 335 gt in a heart beat if I could afford one

here' some info on the different types

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth3.htm

[01txr]

Mr bean,

As soft as I could make it running 8 psi spring in progate 50.

Taking boost down to as low as possible through tune.

However it was still spoiling as low as 1100 rpm in 6th around 60 - 70 k and making full boost of 12 psi by 2400.

To4z, Plazmaman plenum, hdi GT series ic, x force 3.5 cat back, custom Taz manifold, custom 4" dump sep wastegate pipe. Nizpro v springs etc eta.

Just not a strong enough engine to handle power mods.

I knew it would not last but was hoping it would till I built new engine.

Was hoping to have new engine finished over my 3 weeks off over Christmas but some more problem have come about.

All cylinders burning clean, no det evidence, AFR's where sweet.

Rod has what looks to be a casting air pocket in the middle of break on big end of rod.

Now not certain if piston failed first or the flaw in the rod was cause.

If it was piston it was not from ceasing as it was moving freely in bore, maybe oil caused det but it didn't have and oil sludge on it ir wasn't any worst for carbon then other cylinders. Plugs all look identical.

A very hard one to locate cause other than power it was making being most likely.

I set rev limit to 6200rpm as well.

No didn't dyno it, tune by drive.

It had out performed a few shop tune i6s running similar if not bigger setups. One of them making 600rwhp pump fuel

Gt45 turbo.

Can't wait for once I can afford completing new engine, some dollars spent already and still more yet.

Probably still get beaten by a tune only GT. Dam

[IBOO57]

No detonation evidence?

Arent they broken ring lands?

[01txr]

In no evidence no pitting

The crown and land may have broken from piston smashing into the valves as 3 hard contacts made with 1 light.

Thinking about it a but more now if rod breaks from combustion charge piston would not have traveled back up and hit valves.

If it was det causing the rid to break meaning it is traveling up but det is forcing it down so rid gives. Why did valves hit piston?

When I remove the nizpro valve springs I will check installed height pressures and open just incase it may have been valves floating.

Mine you it was only a part throttle squirt in 2nd that caused it.

Cold wet night maybe it spiked on boost and caused it

Doubt it though on it's current set up and when it had standard turbo set up it would over boost to 21psi and never had valve float then. Only running 12 psi now and never seen it over boost as progate 50 seems to do it's job except it being 8psi spring and it making 12 psi on it.

Enough on this i6 of mine, if anyone wants to help me figure out it's cause pm me.

I have a few other possibles.

Back to this beast GT 335 if someone breaks a rod in south east QLD make sure to post up hi res pictures sowe can compare the differences in material structure.

This will be a but of a wait though as dint think anyone will break one soon.

You guys i6 faithfuls do understand the difference between cast and forged and that there is numerous grades of metals and strengthening processes.

If you don't you need to learn about it so you have a idea why us that do say the coyote has a strong bottom end. It's not just the stroke bore ratio or the size of component but the strength of the material used.

Another thing I have not looked at is what piston speed the i6 has as it to is a limiting factor in how hard you can rev it.

Piston speed is faster with longer stroke engines. In each revolution it makes to same number of revolution a shorter stroke engine does, it has to travel further hence piston speed is greater.

The faster a piston travels the greater inertia placed on it.

That's another reason why a short stroke engine is safer at higher revs.

Xr09

I feel the coyote will be cheaper to build as there will be a way larger aftermarket as it

Is manufactured for both AU & US. The AU i6 is pure AU only and very rarely able to get parts that fit from a US manufacturer.

Prices will be better do to competition between manufacturers.

Yes v8 supercar valve trains cost are extreme, but unless this coyote engine goes into race competition in a category like v8 supercars it does not need that sort of valve train.

Also snother thing is we have seen what so far the coyote can make on standard boost in compartment to the I6 so there is a spring advantage straight up.

The more boost the better and dear the valve train has to be.

I know I could have purchased a set of Comp Cam springs at a cheaper price to Atomic

And pretty sure it was a v8 set meaning I would have received 8 extra.

So better quality springs cheaper.

Knowing what companies like the big name US ones are like I'm sure they will manufacture some excellent performance parts to suit high revving high boost huge power coyotes at affordable prices, and have them on shelf ready to sell.

Do a you tube search on the stangs and ford GT and see how many 7 second late model

stangs there is and how many over 1000hp gt's there are.

Then search same for our i6.

Now those will mostly be the old slug 4.6 & 5.4 engines.

Havn't checked as late on what the new v8 is doing over there.

There probably is more listed aftermarket performance parts already for the coyote

Then what is available here for our i6.

I know I can buy a scat forged steel stroker crank here for under $2000 for a 302w

How much for a crank of same quality for the i6.

I have heard $6000 plus and they still arnt guaranteed for big revs and power like 2j & rb's.

I would say a coyote scat crank won't be much more unless lack of demand for it pushes the price up as the oem crank maybe adequate.

Same with conrods I did see someone selling scat forged rods at one stage for our i6 and they where only $700 a set, half the price of a atomic or Argo at the time.

Federal mogul also where doing a high performance oil pump for our 5.4 at a 1/3 the cost of a atomic pump.

Sorry the i6 can't possible ever be able to out do the coyote in standard trim or aftermarket.

Show some sort of evidence proving it can.

[RynoF6]

I have seen tune only Fg F6 do 11.8's here in mackay. It doesn't get cool up here and time was with stock cooler and stock cat.

It is great ford finally brought a LSx beater to the table. What is the best stock GT335 time? The f6 best is 12.3 and I have done a few 12.6's

The GT335 has more potential and is a great motor but for stock and tune only they are even.