F6 310 Vs 335 Gt Raceway

[winstor]

Winstor, how could a inline 6 be smoother than a shorter better balanced

More square engine.

All stolen from wikipedia

No widely used engine configuration is perfectly balanced for secondary excitation. However, by adopting particular definitions for secondary balance, particular configurations can be correctly claimed to be reasonably balanced in these restricted senses. In particular, the straight six, the flat six and the V12 configurations offer exceptional inherent mechanical balance. Boxer eights with an appropriate configuration can eliminate all primary and secondary balance problems, without the use of balancer shafts.

The number of possible configurations with more than two cylinders is enormous. See articles on individual configurations listed in Piston engine configurations for detailed discussions of particular configurations.

There are four different forces and moments of vibration that can occur in an engine design: free forces of the first order, free forces of the second order, free moments of the first order and free moments of the second order. The straight-6, flat-6 and V12 designs have none of these forces or moments of vibration and hence are the naturally smoothest engine designs. (See the Bosch Automotive Handbook, Sixth Edition, pages 459-463 for details.)

Engines with particular balance advantages include:

Straight-6

Flat-4 with two geared crankshafts

Flat-6

Flat-12

V12

Engines with characteristic problems include:

Straight-4 using a single crankshaft have no better kinetic energy balance than a single, and require a relatively large flywheel.

Crossplane V8, which requires a very heavily weighted crankshaft, and has unbalanced firing between the cylinder banks (producing the distinctive and much-loved V8 "burble").

Flatplane (180° offset crankshaft) V8.

In modern multi-cylinder engines, many inherent balance problems are addressed by use of balance shafts. Wear-and-tear is reduced only when the crankshaft is partly balanced before it touches any bearing as it is done in the flat and the V-engines. A balancer shaft transfers its force via bearings onto the crankshaft and rather increases wear-and-tear.

Edited 15/12/10 04:42 PM by winstor

[01txr]

Gee I wrong the i6 must be a better balanced engine.

I will have to go let all the v8 top fuel,v8 Nascar, v8 supercar, v8 jet sprint, v8 etc. all know the v8 is a poor choice and they would be better using a ford i6 turbo because someone writes on the bible wikipedia that the i6 is on the top of the list for best balanced engines.

Maybe if the ford i6 did have a shorter stroke I may believe wikipedia.

Also for the ford i6 to be a better balanced engine it would need to shorten the stroke to same if not less than the coyote and improve the crank balance it has as well as it ridgity for being so long.

The downside would be looking at less capacity around 2j size and loss of all that wonderful torque it makes and unless it also received a steel crank the 2j would be a better choice.

[MrBean]

@ Winstor: I should probably make it clear that when I refer to inline 6, in this context I refer to our particular Ford inline 6.

It is a shaker. It doesn't have counter-balance shafts, and cannot ref, unless you spent huge amounts on steel (with Malory heavy-metal inserts) crankshaft, 4-bolt caps, et al. And here is the problem -> a huge amount of torque if tuned with 350+rwkw, and a narrow rpm band.....resulting in an unreliable bottom end.

It will not sustain high-rpm operation for lengthy periods.....you will most likely shear the crank in half, loose the harmonic balancer, or worse, drop the crank in the sump.

For that same money, well, you know the answer. You would probably get a very decent 7k-8k rpm Coyote....with not much more I would venture than better valve-train.

But, all conjecture on my side, take it as you wish.

As so many guys here have mentioned, we are really fortunate to have the choice between 6 and 8's in Oz.

Edited 18/12/10 04:19 AM by MrBean

[winstor]

Gee I wrong the i6 must be a better balanced engine.

I will have to go let all the v8 top fuel,v8 Nascar, v8 supercar, v8 jet sprint, v8 etc. all know the v8 is a poor choice and they would be better using a ford i6 turbo because someone writes on the bible wikipedia that the i6 is on the top of the list for best balanced engines.

Maybe if the ford i6 did have a shorter stroke I may believe wikipedia.

Also for the ford i6 to be a better balanced engine it would need to shorten the stroke to same if not less than the coyote and improve the crank balance it has as well as it ridgity for being so long.

The downside would be looking at less capacity around 2j size and loss of all that wonderful torque it makes and unless it also received a steel crank the 2j would be a better choice.

I am sorry that you can not comprehend the fact that an Inline 6 has better inherent mechanical balance than a V8, also I never said the Ford I6 was the best balanced engine either.

I wonder why all those sports use V8's? Could it be that they are simpler designs, relatively compact in size per displacement, and as common as a house fly (compared to anything larger)? It has nothing to do with inherent mechanical balance or the smoothness of an engine.

Also I guess I forgot to highlight an important part of the info from wikipedia.

There are four different forces and moments of vibration that can occur in an engine design: free forces of the first order, free forces of the second order, free moments of the first order and free moments of the second order. The straight-6, flat-6 and V12 designs have none of these forces or moments of vibration and hence are the naturally smoothest engine designs. (See the Bosch Automotive Handbook, Sixth Edition, pages 459-463 for details.)

Edited 18/12/10 07:38 AM by winstor

[Guest XR09]

And then their is the different V configurations. sixty degree being the worst but most compact. It would shake itself to bits without a huge counterbalancer. The ninty degree is smoother but takes up a lot of room. The I6 and V12 are smooth because of the available firing order.

[01txr]

All sorts of engine design has been used in motorsport to the point of private business building there own engines. Still they choose a v8 over anything else.

What is the quickest accelerating combustion envi e in the world. V8 top fuel.

Now if it was possible to do better with a i6 or anything other than a v8 im sure it

Would be used as race cars are built around engine and driver compartment as well as rule restrictions.

Let's focus on Australian prostock, pro street, mod street etc. The fastestest cars are v8 once again v8's you have Campo with his twin turbo V8 being fastest turbo car in Australia.

Manswetto v8 Capri being fastest na car in Australia.

The last time I looked the top 10 cars in all these classes where all v8 powered.

Bit of a pattern here.

Did the manswetto Capri run a 7 over 1/4 as well. I have never seen a blown i6 ford run anywhere near this time little than a na one even when it has been fitted to a light weight

Smaller car.

Also take note of what mr bean mentioned as he is spot on with the balance issues of our i6s.

The i6 is a engine that can make huge power due to it's cylinder head design along with it's huge torque with it's long stroke but it is not a strong reliable engine that can be rev'd hard for extended periods as with time it will shake it self to pieces.

You find huge long stroke i6's in trucks, ships, trains and earth moving equipment as they require the low rev torque capability of it's design.

From the compartment on the wiki they will be stating between the v8 with same stroke same bore configuration in compartment of balance.

Problem is in same configuration there is a displacement difference.

The i6 has still lost as displacement is the most key element of power.

Simply put a under square long stroke engine is a torque engine designed for trucks.

A over square shot stroke engine is a high revving horsepower engine.

You can not compare a v12 short stroke very well balanced supercar engine with a long stroke i6 it will never have the same smoothness of the v12 or of a over square v8 even with steel crank unless stroke is reduced.

In stead of picking quotes from wiki go talk to atomic or nizpro or any other known engine builders and ask them if the ford i6 is a better balanced engine then the new coyote.

How many i6's have broken due to rods, why does the 2j make more power.

It's the poor crank stroke design (truck) they is the limiting factor of the ford i6.

The i6 is a great street engine if built to be what it was designed for, low revs huge low down grunt. It just does not make a reliable race engine.

The other problem is you can only make so much low down torque due to what we all know traction problem.

Now the coyote can match it with it's extra capacity and better it with it's high revving horsepower.

I6 looses sorry, I to am sad to that my i6 has been out done and can accept the reality of it.

Kpm tune only already has surpassed what has been achieve in 7 plus years of developing the i6 in just 4 days of developing the power the coyote makes.

It is making more power at standard boost than most i6's with double the boost.

Last I knew is that bosch was a great auto electrical manufacturer not a engine manufacturer little than a performance race engine manufacturer.

Maybe they are building the next i6 Ferrari engine that I didn't know about.

It a v8 is good enough for the most successful auto motive companies in the world to use it must be a great thing.

Does any of the following companies that use v's use a i6?

Aston Martin

Audi

Bentley

Ferrari

Lamborgini

Volkswagen

Porsche

Just to name a few.

He'll even ford America rejected our great almighty i6.

[Dillz]

Pretty sure Porche/Volkswagen have and inline/flat six don't they? And I'd probably say most of the others except Audi don't even use six cylinders in there current cars.

[Guest XR09]

I have a V twin that will rev to 11,500 but is not really worth taking over 10,000. Cept on down changes. Love that cam over run sound. And an I4 that will rev to 15,500 and needs most of it. And a V4 that will rev to 10,500 but is not worth taking over 9,500. Stupid gay bike.

The smoothest is the V4 but as I said it does not like to rev that hard.

There was a fantastic thread on this site about torque and horsepower. Cant find it now. And a race motor needs horsepower. Overrun and all that crap.

And yup about the I6. that's why I keep calling it the old Holland. Strait out of the Massy 35

Didn't Aston use to run a I6. Bently a strait 8. Untill technology caught up.

There is not doubt the V8 is king of the track. I6 supercars just does not sound right. nor does the 6. More like a wet fart and whoopy cusion.

Sorry just trying to make light of something that just sounds so stupid. $ for $ you would take the V8. But if it's my $$$ and I dont have much. The 6 is a bewty

[j.d]

Use to have a 99 Porsche that has a flat 6, so yes some of those cars mentioned runs a 6 Porsche dont even have an 8 and they are a top car company, after that had an Audi a6 which also has 6 some of the cars mentioned run 6,s that are all smooth may not be the "performance" models but none the less are all smooth engines

[winstor]

All sorts of engine design has been used in motorsport to the point of private business building there own engines. Still they choose a v8 over anything else.

What is the quickest accelerating combustion envi e in the world. V8 top fuel.

Now if it was possible to do better with a i6 or anything other than a v8 im sure it

Would be used as race cars are built around engine and driver compartment as well as rule restrictions.

Let's focus on Australian prostock, pro street, mod street etc. The fastestest cars are v8 once again v8's you have Campo with his twin turbo V8 being fastest turbo car in Australia.

Manswetto v8 Capri being fastest na car in Australia.

The last time I looked the top 10 cars in all these classes where all v8 powered.

Bit of a pattern here.

Did the manswetto Capri run a 7 over 1/4 as well. I have never seen a blown i6 ford run anywhere near this time little than a na one even when it has been fitted to a light weight

Smaller car.

Again the reason they use V8s is due to cost effectiveness. A big block V8 is sure as hell cheaper to produce, purchase, build and maintain than any exotic Flat-12, V12, V10 etc and are far more common as well.

Just because V8s are the most common engine in drag racing doesn't mean they are the best engine config.

Fact still remains that Flat-6, Inline-6 and V12s have better inherent mechanical balance and are naturally the smoothest engine designs.

Also Bosche is far more qualified in regards to this matter than you, and unless you can provide proof that what I have said is wrong, in regards to certain engine designs being naturally smoother, then maybe you should stop talking poo.

The Aston Martin DB7 used a super-charged 3.2L Inline-6 btw.

Also which top of the range models from those manufacturers use a V8?

Aston Martin - 6.0L V12

Audi - 5.0L biturbo V10 / 6.0L TDI V12

Bentley - 6.0L W12 twin-turbo

Ferrari - 6.0L V12 / 6.3L V12

Lamborgini - 6.5L V12

Volkswagen - 6.0L W12

Porsche - 4.5/4.9/5.0L Flat-12 / 3.6L Flat-6

Suprisingly......none

And AGAIN I never said the Ford Inline-6 is a smoother motor, just pointing out to Bean that while the coyote is smoother than the Ford I6, the same rule doesn't apply to all other Inline-6 (or V12s, Flat-12 etc).

Edited 18/12/10 01:51 PM by winstor