Track Setup Ba Xr8 Ute

[Guest XR09]

Think Erko has the idea. Get something very light, almost square and turbo it.

A very good 2nd hand super sports go for around 20 thou. Their a lot of fun. And insanely quick.

[Gee]

At the risk of sounding arrogant...

<<<That picture is my workshop, I manage it, we set-up No 42 - Chris Pither's race ute, the suspension component repairs are done in my workshop for both of the Ice Break Racing Utes when they are in Sydney - yes they are commodores now, but we also previously set-up Layton Crambrook's Mother Energy racing BA ute.

Please trust me when I say that setting up a street car like a dedicated race car is optimistic at best

Cheers

Pat

I like people expressing there opinion it make an interesting thread. In my opinion the best comprise between performance and handling on the street is the factory set up that is way Ford spends so much money on suspension. I cannot say how an XR8 ute handles but and XR6t ute handles very neutral. With a set of semi slicks I can throw my ute into a corner and it will grip well for a 2 ton car and on the exit it as great grip to drive out. You can get any car to understeer by going into the corner to fast.

What makes a great driver is knowing the limits and the strengths of the car your driving and driving to them.

But the title of the thread was Track Setup BA Xr8 Ute not the best comprise between street and track use.

If you want the best comprise get a set of shocks that have electric adjustable damping. Suspension set up on the track changes from day to day, temperature, track surface etc have to big of an affect on car set up.

But to the original question basic suspension set up to stop understeer is reduce front sway bar size or add/increase rear swaybar size.(This information can be found on the internet anywhere) but doing this will affects other parts of the cars handling.

[power_slide]

ford design the car and suspension for the street and to go 100,000k's

that is the best setup for street tyres and road speed limits.

I personaly think bilstines is one of the best mods you can do to the utes

[Erko]

good input everyone....Smoke them Tyres thanks a lot for your input

my next falcon will likely be a Boss 335, and I'll be planning my suspension tweaks very carefully. Compliance is key.......cornering "flat" is not an instant recipe for handling/corner speed

[Smoke them tyres]

Glad to help anytime Erko and agree fully......stiffer and stiffer is not the answer.

I can vouch that the correct pivot geometry will be one of the best mods you will do for your new recipient machine. It will transform the front end grip. You can then have great/maximum grip, with both proper weight transfer and proper contact pattern and sensible/moderate/correct spring rates.....just as a double wishbone should provide. The other setup, to me, is more like a strut setup....NOT suitable. I have some Global West UCA's and Koni's in an old (with exactly the same tyres and width) and it can easily outgrip my BF, even now. The ride is more compliant as well. A great mod. The BF needs this (properly engineered) mod too, but the pivot point does not need to be moved as much because it's original camber curve is not as bad as the old Falc.

IMO, I would have preferred Ford move the UCA closer to the LCA (as the V8 Supercars setup does) as ball joint angularity would not be as much over the full travel, the loads would be closer to the chassis rails where the max strength/stiffness is, the roll centre would be higher as the UCA would be "flatter", and the spindle upright could be moved away from the tyre/rim zone so that larger diameter front tyres could be used. The FG UCA pivots are from memory around 6-8mm lower than the BF ones, so they're heading in the right direction with setup for that model. The upper ball joint angle may have been changed to suit as a consequence.

It's great that Ford have stuck with the double wishbone set up in these cars......extra grip and response available from a tweak here and there....so long as one knows where to look.

So many manufacturers just put in the "cheap" and crap option IMO.....McPherson struts and all their shortcomings:

-bending load on damper strut reducing response (fancy using the damper rod as a suspension link....d'oh). Hardly best practice.

-loads concentrated on inner guard/firewall (ask a VT owner about firewall cracking/oil canning

-roll centre very low and a long way from c of g

-top pivot amplifies camber loss from body roll

-little/no dynamic camber gain from compression of suspension, and if LCA angle is increased to gain some, tyre scrub is increased

-not as compliant

-strut bars required to reduce/control tower flex

The rear with no bar and std spring rates exhibits the grip and wear pattern desired, due to the lower positioning of the UCA IMO.

Edited 07/12/10 12:05 PM by Smoke them tyres

[Apes]

Glad to help anytime Erko and agree fully......stiffer and stiffer is not the answer.

I can vouch that the correct pivot geometry will be one of the best mods you will do for your new recipient machine. It will transform the front end grip. You can then have great/maximum grip, with both proper weight transfer and proper contact pattern and sensible/moderate/correct spring rates.....just as a double wishbone should provide. The other setup, to me, is more like a strut setup....NOT suitable. I have some Global West UCA's and Koni's in an old (with exactly the same tyres and width) and it can easily outgrip my BF, even now. The ride is more compliant as well. A great mod. The BF needs this (properly engineered) mod too, but the pivot point does not need to be moved as much because it's original camber curve is not as bad as the old Falc.

IMO, I would have preferred Ford move the UCA closer to the LCA (as the V8 Supercars setup does) as ball joint angularity would not be as much over the full travel, the loads would be closer to the chassis rails where the max strength/stiffness is, the roll centre would be higher as the UCA would be "flatter", and the spindle upright could be moved away from the tyre/rim zone so that larger diameter front tyres could be used. The FG UCA pivots are from memory around 6-8mm lower than the BF ones, so they're heading in the right direction with setup for that model. The upper ball joint angle may have been changed to suit as a consequence.

It's great that Ford have stuck with the double wishbone set up in these cars......extra grip and response available from a tweak here and there....so long as one knows where to look.

So many manufacturers just put in the "cheap" and crap option IMO.....McPherson struts and all their shortcomings:

-bending load on damper strut reducing response (fancy using the damper rod as a suspension link....d'oh). Hardly best practice.

-loads concentrated on inner guard/firewall (ask a VT owner about firewall cracking/oil canning

-roll centre very low and a long way from c of g

-top pivot amplifies camber loss from body roll

-little/no dynamic camber gain from compression of suspension, and if LCA angle is increased to gain some, tyre scrub is increased

-not as compliant

-strut bars required to reduce/control tower flex

The rear with no bar and std spring rates exhibits the grip and wear pattern desired, due to the lower positioning of the UCA IMO.

Lads this tread has turned into a interesting read and its great to get everyones thoughts and opions. Can I just confirm what setup I should go for. I will be reducing my front bar to 27mm (was thinking of going back to standard, however I will not). What values on the wheel alignment should I be looking at keeping in mind I dont have caster kits and tyre wear is a consideration?

I have a set of Kumho V710 coming (close to a full slick with only to lines cut into the tyre) which should help with the turn. Has anyone used them??

I have decided not to go with the rear bar.

The values I quoted earlier are incorrect due to my workshop having to change the steering rack as my turbo manifold cooked the rack. I have not recieved the print out but I guessing that there was no consideration given to any kind of track work. I believe that if I get a aggressive alignment done this will give me great benieft when I get back to the track...

[Smoke them tyres]

Heatshield the rack with some alloy or stainless sheet in the affected area ...you only need 1/4" either side of it with some airflow and it will do the job. The rack should then live. The heat will be from both hot airflow and radiated heat. Turbos and their associated plumbing can cook anything to carbon, seals and electrical wiring being particularly intolerant. Heatshielding of turbo installations is something that is not done enough.

Good choices on the above, but...

I would focus on dropping the front spring rate as I posted as I think that will yield the biggest improvement. However.....with the current spring rate being very (overly) stiff (IMO), you could probably get away with refitting the std front bar. I would probably try that first. I don't think you need mountains of additional spring rate in roll with those current springs. You need more compliance.

More initial camber would be great. You don't need the camber kit to change the camber. The std Ford shims are not slotted, so the only way to remove them is to completely unbolt the UCA mounts from the car and then refit them. A bit of a bugger on the V8's I'm told. You would then get it aligned with some of the slotted Fulcrum Suspension shims. They just slot in and only require the UCA mounts to be loosened for removal/fitment. The actual kit mount brackets are exactly the same as std ones, so you don't need to buy them, only the shims. 1.5, 3 and 6mm are the effective thicknesses available.

I have mine with toe in to gain even wear across the tyre and have that to suit the negative camber/positive caster that I like, and leave it at that. That's my preference. However, other forum members have tried far more than me on that front (toe etc), so I would consider those alignment specs to try. Remember that they are only static settings. How well it keeps to those settings under load will depend on bushing durometer.

Edited 08/12/10 12:00 PM by Smoke them tyres

[Smoke them tyres]

Any updates?

[Apes]

Hi,

Not as yet gone for the 27mm front bar. I will be seeing Fulcrum soon with the alignment as there is a test day at QR on 14 Jan before the re surface. I will be fitting the new semi slicks soon. I will post the changes after the track day. cheers