Data Logging

[IH8TOADS]

As some would know....I tend to stick up for the road tuner. BUT Ratter makes some good points and to me they sound like an honest opinion. I have both SCT and HP and believe me there is definately some important tables that you can't edit in HP.....including the most important knock sensor table in the BA strategy IMO. Having a bit of knowledge of this stuff, Ratter could come back with a 1000 points if he wanted. Some of the points regarding street tuning above are very valid, and made for a good read:

[Ralph Wiggum]

Yortt, nice job. I thought that I was on the right track. Thanks for this great info. Good to see an opposing, and balanced view. Unfortunately when there is money involved cash for comment will remain. Cheers

I have already stated my intended use of VCM in an ealier post.

I think that its important to highlight Ratters conflict of interest here also. Very hard (if indeed possible) to be objective about such a subject when you own a Dyno that pays your bills. But in reality a dyno is the only viable commercial option. Unfortunately not many people have the time, inclination and passion to get into tuning, so lets try and encourage those who do. Cheers

I am the poster boy for tuning you own car, but to be honest Alan I think you are completly out of line with those two comments. Mick offers invaluable advice to members of this (and other forums) He has also highlighted to you (free of charge) the issues you will face when adjusting the limited parameters available in an X-Cal 2 with a generic tune. You would be wise to take this advice onboard and consider your options.

Too move on from where you are you will need, a VCM/HPT tuning package $1000, A good quality wideband (Dyno Jet/Innovative/NGK Etc) $400 to $1000,Some effective means of knock detection (once the cars is tuned to run outside the parameters Ford have calibrated the sensors to operate in) $350 to $10000.

Plus the time and/or desire to learn. This all add's up and makes experts like Mick's services a much better option for most people.

If you wish to pursue this then I wish you well, but do not make comments such as those above when Mick is giving you the facts plain and simple.

[ratter]

Believe what you want, you copy and paste information all the time and then act like you know all the in's and out, You are interstate from me, although I have done cars as far as QLD, I Do not believe at any point I'm likley to see you car for tuning, so my information was posted to try to help you out not to get a sale.

Yortts post is again a classic example of cut and paste, lets google until we come up with a story that suits me and then I'll post it, and yes VCM/HP will do some of the things listed but op was talking about tune adjustments with a handset not tuning software.

The OP made no mention of having equipment to test things on the road, that's why I mentioned wide band, yes I do know they exist and can be configured to be data loged, I have 3 that I can use on the road.

A smart dyno operator will run the dyno at a ramp rate that close to matches the acceleration rate of the car in the gear being tested, that's why my dyno does have a fixed ramp rate for a engine configuration and whether it forced induction or not, we choose a ramp rate to match the car.

Your point about MBT is wrong, different configuration motors will drop power sometimes before knock has been reached while others will make more power while pinging, guess which one the Ford turbo is, yes the one that making power while pinging with 98 octane fuel, so your drag mph could end up with a motor that is grenaded by tuning it that way, but what about part throttle mbt etc how are you going to do that?

The ford calibrated knock sensor is far from accurate and will pull spark when there is no knock, we have proved this time after time with electronic knock detection and it also picks up knock events before the human ear will.

Do you think I would have invested in a machine that is worth close to $90,000 if I could do it on the street, some of you guys are deluded

[tab]

So Mick...you're trying to say that we should believe your expert opinion, based upon what you do every day for a living with an impeccable reputation, over something that some journo hack wrote seven years ago?

Bit rich isn't it.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Bit rich isn't it.

Pun intended............... Nyuk nyuk

[ratter]

So Mick...you're trying to say that we should believe your expert opinion, based upon what you do every day for a living with an impeccable reputation, over something that some journo hack wrote seven years ago?

Bit rich isn't it.

yes mate I'm trying to take over the tuning industry through out Australia

Seriously though, I never claim to know everything, but we do fix a lot of cars with various issues that others can not fix whether they can't be bothered or do not have the knowledge, I do not come on here and tell everybody how to do things on their cars, but I try to steer them a little straighter if I can see they're going the wrong way. memebers like IH8TOADS and Ralph Wiggum for example have played quite a bit with their cars and can see what is going on and are happy to post plenty of good info, but then you get some others that just post rubbish.

I see guys getting theirs "custom tuned" in an hour or so and the owner thinks their tuner is great because they did it so quick, all the tuner did was use an exisitng tune, made a number and let it go. I spend way too much time on my tunes and I like to understand how things work and interact with other things, most my customers are happy, not with just the number it made on the dyno, but the complete package.

Getting to the point where I do not want to try to help, as these idiots try to shoot you down or claim it's a sales pitch.

[Wenier]

Yea I have to say after reading on from yesterday all I could think is what a retard for saying what has been said. There is so much info on this site to help people and clearly it wasnt a sales pitch but you just cant help some people.

Also impellor you said VCM might be a better option not that is what you were going to use.

[Yortt]

Believe what you want, you copy and paste information all the time and then act like you know all the in's and out, You are interstate from me, although I have done cars as far as QLD, I Do not believe at any point I'm likley to see you car for tuning, so my information was posted to try to help you out not to get a sale.

Yortts post is again a classic example of cut and paste, lets google until we come up with a story that suits me and then I'll post it, and yes VCM/HP will do some of the things listed but op was talking about tune adjustments with a handset not tuning software.

The OP made no mention of having equipment to test things on the road, that's why I mentioned wide band, yes I do know they exist and can be configured to be data loged, I have 3 that I can use on the road.

A smart dyno operator will run the dyno at a ramp rate that close to matches the acceleration rate of the car in the gear being tested, that's why my dyno does have a fixed ramp rate for a engine configuration and whether it forced induction or not, we choose a ramp rate to match the car.

Your point about MBT is wrong, different configuration motors will drop power sometimes before knock has been reached while others will make more power while pinging, guess which one the Ford turbo is, yes the one that making power while pinging with 98 octane fuel, so your drag mph could end up with a motor that is grenaded by tuning it that way, but what about part throttle mbt etc how are you going to do that?

The ford calibrated knock sensor is far from accurate and will pull spark when there is no knock, we have proved this time after time with electronic knock detection and it also picks up knock events before the human ear will.

Do you think I would have invested in a machine that is worth close to $90,000 if I could do it on the street, some of you guys are deluded

"Yortts post is again a classic example of cut and paste" This is what I have experience from comparing dyno tuning and tuning at the track, my experience is from Holdens and turbo 4cylinders. I made it quiet clear that the article was lifted from the net and I did so as it was written by a very experienced reputable motoring journalist not a hack journalist as suggested. The information is now everywhere on the net, those that want to be enlightened search read evaluate weigh up the varying opinions and conclude for yourself.

I am not asking anyone to agree with me or dictate my opinion to any one just offering an alternate view based on my experience.

"A smart dyno operator will run the dyno at a ramp rate that close to matches the acceleration rate of the car in the gear being tested" All I can suggest to others reading this post is next time you have your car run up on the dyno note the number of seconds it takes to do the run then go to the track and do the same test in the same gear and compare the time in seconds again, this will answer the question.

"Your point about MBT is wrong, different configuration motors will drop power sometimes before knock has been reached while others will make more power while pinging, guess which one the Ford turbo is, yes the one that making power while pinging with 98 octane fuel, so your drag mph could end up with a motor that is grenaded by tuning it that way, but what about part throttle mbt etc how are you going to do that? On 98 octane fuel and below I do not accept your premise and no one is suggesting you drive the tune past the knock threashold.

Any thing above 98 octane fuel I would agree with you as you the have the ability to light it up too early BTDC in the compession stroke and achieve maximum cylinder pressures too early ATDC and loose power.

"The ford calibrated knock sensor is far from accurate and will pull spark when there is no knock, we have proved this time after time with electronic knock detection and it also picks up knock events before the human ear will." I know the sophistfication of the Expensive Daewoo knock system and logic would dictate that Ford would be very similar and would have spent millions of dollars developing knock detection in particular for forced induction, no aftermarket system would have access to the expertise or budget ford would have.

Your comment "The ford calibrated knock sensor is far from accurate and will pull spark when there is no knock" given my above comments I can not see how any independent workshop could have access to equipment to determine this. No aftermarket knock sensing has the ability to listen through the correct window in the combustion cycle filtering all unwanted noise and listening to the specific knock frequency generated by that particular engine and accurately determine the intensity level I know Expensive Daewoo do and I see no reason why Ford would not.

.

[ratter]

I post from experience , I come to try to help, not to argue with people that have readsometing or tuned one or 2 cars & believe they know it all. Every one is welcome to believe what they want

[Yortt]

I post from experience , I come to try to help, not to argue with people that have readsometing or tuned one or 2 cars & believe they know it all. Every one is welcome to believe what they want

Ratter I acknowledge the positive contribution you have made to this forum over a long period, and I can see how I would be viewed as a "Johnny come lately" however I feel as strongly about road/track tuning from experience as you obviously do about dyno tuning and as you said "Every one is welcome to believe what they want"