Fg Replacement

[dashturbo]

sounds like a VE forum... I thought commodores were smaller in every internal dimension than a FG falcon?

I can tell you that I have never thought... needs less weight on the front wheels, or needs more rear legroom...

but in commodores I have thought... needs a better motor...needs pillars you can see around... interior needs alot of work to feel new.. gearbox is useless etc etc.

my two bob..

[arm79]

lol... Far from being a VE forum...

But someone asked about platform improvements, and to Holden, they deserve credit where credit is due. They do a couple of things better that Ford would hopefully be thinking about doing for the next platform.

But there are other things where Ford a streets ahead. Forward vision, engines, transmissions, etc, etc.

Edited 20/10/09 11:07 AM by arm79

[Venom XR6]

  On 20/10/2009 at 6:28 AM, arm79 said:

Plenty of things they could do, its not that much of a killer platform.

Could probably start by increasing wheelbase. Move the front wheels forward and reduce the stupidly long front overhang.

Probably the biggest jump platform wise the VE had over the VZ was the wheelbase and tracks, all 3 of which are bigger than an FG. Wheelbase is nearly 100mm longer. Think of the added stability and cabin size offered there.

And think of the extra weight going longer and wider has added onto the VE over the VZ. 100kg +.

I'd bet that if the VE was designed 2 years later it would not have gained in size over the VZ. Expensive Daewoo had the design locked in just before the oil price shot through the roof and all the global warming crap flared up, and they were stuck with the biggest guzzlers in the large car class.

I'd say that instead of cars continuing to get bigger they will start to get gradually smaller to save weight and improve economy. Some of the car company execs have already started to indicate this will happen. I'd say the 2015 Falcon will be slightly smaller than the FG, but if done properly it will keep interior dimensions near identical.

[RHR]

Thanks venom for the info.. Be sure to keep it coming

[Evil F6]

  On 20/10/2009 at 6:28 AM, arm79 said:

Plenty of things they could do, its not that much of a killer platform.

Could probably start by increasing wheelbase. Move the front wheels forward and reduce the stupidly long front overhang.

Probably the biggest jump platform wise the VE had over the VZ was the wheelbase and tracks, all 3 of which are bigger than an FG. Wheelbase is nearly 100mm longer. Think of the added stability and cabin size offered there.

Ford only spent half what Expensive Daewoo did on VE, on the FG and it clearly shows. It was inexcusable they did not address the poor packaging of the BA/BF with it's ridiculously long overhangs. FG is a better car for sure, but not to have reduced weight and shorten overhangs was plain stupid.

Anyhow the FG update next year should be good at least in way; the POS 5.4 V8 gets dumped for the new 100kg lighter Coyote 5.0 V8, so the car may get a well needed weight cut, although Ford finds it almost impossible to build lighter cars and will probably stuff the car full of useless crap to leave the weight almost the same. Yes and Expensive Daewoo sucks too for the massive weight increase of the VE.

[bunna]

Can't say I've heard of anyone walking away from an FG because the front overhang was too large. I can imagine people staying away in droves if we hadn't fixed body build quality, or interior feel, or improved fuel economy. Seriously, we're talking about building cars on a budget here, investment must be justified.

And on the weight front - yeah, shame on Ford for building heavy cars while the rest of the world build lighter and lighter sedans.

[Evil F6]

That's right Ford can't sell em fast enough, because big heavy cars are in such high demand these days! Down about 70% from their peak sales. Maybe Ford should of learnt a lesson from Mazda about keeping a car light, since they owned a majority share.

90% of the nitwits that buy cars could give a toss about performance, all they care is economy, reliability and styling. I like the style of the FG, but it was a very conservative update and it could have been a killer. They actually saved 40kg of weight in the FG through various changes in the engine bay etc, and then added 50kg back to end up heavier than BF in an era when their sales were in the toilet and had 2 years to see the negative press Expensive Daewoo got on their lard arsed VE effort.

[arm79]

  On 24/10/2009 at 12:15 AM, Venom XR6 said:

And think of the extra weight going longer and wider has added onto the VE over the VZ. 100kg +.

I'd bet that if the VE was designed 2 years later it would not have gained in size over the VZ. Expensive Daewoo had the design locked in just before the oil price shot through the roof and all the global warming crap flared up, and they were stuck with the biggest guzzlers in the large car class.

I'd say that instead of cars continuing to get bigger they will start to get gradually smaller to save weight and improve economy. Some of the car company execs have already started to indicate this will happen. I'd say the 2015 Falcon will be slightly smaller than the FG, but if done properly it will keep interior dimensions near identical.

You obviously forget the AU to BA change over? How many KG did a Falcon grow without any increase in exterior dimensions? And they were arguably designing with weight in mind - for example the lighter and smaller rear IRS compared to the AU design. VE's are pretty much cm for cm and kg for kg with the equivalent FG models. Weight is bought on by stiffening the body for better handing, towing abilities, NVH, safety and features. With the VE, Expensive Daewoo simply caught upto Ford in that regard.

Until our manufacturers start building with more alloy and carbon fibre, these things will get heavier. I think they realise that it wouldnt be a Falcon or a Late model camira if they dropped the size. I buy Falcons because they suit everything I / the average Aussie wants perfectly. If they downsize, I - like most of us I think - would reconsider.

Also, I didn't say go longer or wider, simply increase wheelbase to provide better weight distribution. This wouldnt cause weight increases at all.

  On 24/10/2009 at 12:49 PM, bunna said:

Can't say I've heard of anyone walking away from an FG because the front overhang was too large. I can imagine people staying away in droves if we hadn't fixed body build quality, or interior feel, or improved fuel economy. Seriously, we're talking about building cars on a budget here, investment must be justified.

And on the weight front - yeah, shame on Ford for building heavy cars while the rest of the world build lighter and lighter sedans.

People wouldn't be walking away from it. They would buy it and just continue to complain about a bad design. But the world would walk away. I think things like that are what defines the Falcon from having a good platform rather than a world class platform that can be used in any country.

I also do wonder how many people would be running TO a Falcon or a Territory if Ford had invested its millions into a diesel or proper LPG injected engines for the FG, rather than spending millions on a new front suspension that probably wasn't really required. Rather than teasing us for a number of years and finally following through 2 years too late.

Ford guys should be proud of what they develop on the budgets they are given and the targets sales $$$ they must keep within. I want to still be buying an Aussie made Falcon in 20 or 30 years time, and sometimes I cant help but think Ford missed the mark of what the FG should have been to keep it viable.

Imagine driving a Falcon with the dynamics of a 3 series BMW, with turbo engines running on LPG making FG kind of power and fuel consumption, but costing only $40 a week to fill. Or an XT fleet hack or Territory that gets 1000km to a tank, but can still drive from one end of the country to the other in comfort with a 5 star safety rating.

To me that's a world class car and something that can be sold to the world, and something hopefully Ford bring us with the FG replacement in a few years time.

I think I've dribbled on enough for one night. It might be too many beers and too big a cruise today, plus the sunburn!

Edited 24/10/09 02:07 PM by arm79

[bunna]

  On 24/10/2009 at 2:04 PM, arm79 said:

I think things like that are what defines the Falcon from having a good platform rather than a world class platform that can be used in any country.

Ah that old chestnut - as Mr Kerrigan says "tell him he's dreamin". The falcon isn't american anymore - enough said.

As for sales - must be a boom time in the world economy! I think you'll find everyone everywhere is struggling. But the market is building again, and lo and behold we're selling cars!

Every falcon since the has been "the last roll of the dice for Ford Australia". We'll see what happens.

[tmac450]

From all reports, the FG has a better ride and handling than VE, so the overhang would not be an issue for 99% of buyers.

Sure improvements can be made to the FG, but that's what new models are for. Ford's biggest woes at the moment are with their pathetic marketing and customer service.

All that aside, and back on topic, are there going to be any revisions to the I6 next year when the new V8s come out? Things like direct injection, more power for XR6 and F6?