Why Tuners Hate 60lb Siemens Deka's

[01txr]

I just changed the Accel settings in my car, no probs before or after with run on, just was trying to

get rid of the after a WOT complete throttle off my AFR flicks to 10 for a nano second or more then goes

to 16s before setting to a idle cruise 14.7 to 15.1

Also tried dash pot adjustment but have only had a quick try with adjustment.

Car is running well with no issues in the tune.

Is it normal or is there something else I need to look at.

This is with the Nizpro drilled injectors you gave me injector values for.

Also the previous tune I ran before I richened up the tune today and turned off the Adaptive learning

ran 12.1 WOT and 14.6-15.1 idle cruise.

New tune is still running same AFR's even though I decreased values marginally for high and low injector slopes.

However my boost seems to be coming on before 2500 to 12psi (6th gear)where as previous tune was 3500+

Would that be something in the tune protecting the engine by use of the wastegate because if it did boost

with the injector settings it would run lean. Was seeming to bleed boost out via wastegate by the sound it

was making. now it is not making the sound like leaking boosted air.

Also if people are running oddessay battries like self, mine runs like 14 to 16v this would also feed more fuel

or wont it due to the voltage.

Danny I cant PM you due to message sending problem, so will ask you here, could you advise me on how to get the

launch control to function. I have tried everything the manual says to set and more with no luck.

Car 2003 BA XR6T with a T56 fitted was orig T5 and am using advantage 3 Pro Racer software.

I can get it to come on, but it wont switch off.

EG set it at 3500 and it works but also driving it comes on whenever I rev to 3500rpm.

that is even when running the off as 0 mph, 10mph, 20mph.

If you can help can you PM me a email address so I can communicate with you.

that way I dont ruin your thread here by going off track.

[ratter]

Danny

The 80 lb figures have been rereleased and are different to your original figures, may be give them a try after modifiyng them for our fuel pressure

[01txr]

I have just upgraded to Plazmaman Plenum & pipes, running GT Series HDI Cooler.

Still fine tuning injectors (60lb Deka's).

Running 15psi of boost but will be readjusting to 12 psi next tune load.

Fuel Injector Minium Pulse Width is a problem as I can only set as far as .001

I am using the advantage 3 software - Racer Pro.

Running at present with 14.6 to 15.8 Idle/cruise and WOT pre 2000rpm 13.3 with 12.4 WOT after 2500

Using Low Slope .02 as would not idle at your setting of .02142430

High Slope is set as per your setting of .02037564

With idle when cold it is at first running high 16's for approx 20seconds before settling to 14.6 to 15.8

I take it that the PCM is adjusting it to a safe AFR.

[Headsex]

Danny

The 80 lb figures have been rereleased and are different to your original figures, may be give them a try after modifiyng them for our fuel pressure

Yes, I was informed about this, and noticed the major issue is because people like me were resting on RICH min pulsewidth for idle.

This is mainly due to how the PCM internally computes the pulsewidth. It would seem it ignores the Battery offset opening time when checking against the min pulsewidth value.

Changing the min pulsewidth from 1.5ms to 0.599ms, and bumping up the battery Voltage offset allows less fuel to be injected

I will upload the new figures this evening.

Its amazing what a little bit of feedback does.. Infact, they mentioned they already knew about the issue. Good to know Ford Racing stand behind their products.

Edited 24/03/09 10:41 PM by Headsex

[Headsex]

I have just upgraded to Plazmaman Plenum & pipes, running GT Series HDI Cooler.

Still fine tuning injectors (60lb Deka's).

Running 15psi of boost but will be readjusting to 12 psi next tune load.

Fuel Injector Minium Pulse Width is a problem as I can only set as far as .001

I am using the advantage 3 software - Racer Pro.

Running at present with 14.6 to 15.8 Idle/cruise and WOT pre 2000rpm 13.3 with 12.4 WOT after 2500

Using Low Slope .02 as would not idle at your setting of .02142430

High Slope is set as per your setting of .02037564

With idle when cold it is at first running high 16's for approx 20seconds before settling to 14.6 to 15.8

I take it that the PCM is adjusting it to a safe AFR.

A few posts ago you mentioned you were running Nizpro injectors? These values are for Siemens Deka's. Did you change injectors? or is this another vehicle you are talking about?

What commanded Lambda are you using to get a resulting 12.4afr ?

[IH8TOADS]

He was changing to deka's he posted so I gather he went through with it.

.....talking commanded Lambda, anyone adjusting the speed density tabels and if so are logging on the street with success?

[Headsex]

Ahh ok. I must have missed that part.

Either way, Both the high slope and low slope need upto say 10% adjustment either way to suit the vehicle, even though these values are "engineeringly correct", Other fuel system problems may be lurking there..

In your case, I’d check fuel reg. put a fuel pressure gauge into the feed line.

Other possibilities for a big change in high slope values could be insufficient pump, either being volume, or pressure.

Remember that the xr6 turbo runs a higher than normal 4bar base fuel pressure. With 15psi, that’s 5 bar of fuel pressure as the fuel pressure raises with boost. You have to make sure that your fuel system, in particular, fuel pump, is rated at 5bar or higher.

I recently tuned a particular car with a GT42R turbo, which had a single Bosch 044 pump mounted off a surge tank. I noticed at 15psi, afr's were perfectly flat, with the commanded lambda, indicating that the speed density tables, and injector slopes were correct.

Raising the boost to approx 20-21psi, resulted in correct midrange afr's, but as the RPM reached 5000rpm, the AFR's rapidly started leaning out to the likes of 0.86 prior to backing off. Changing the high injector slope as a test resulted in extremely fat midrange afr's, but the same lean off above 5000rpm. This was indicative of insufficient fuel pump pressure. Which was later proved when a fuel gauge was installed, fuel pressure was dropping when it should have remained stable to boost at the higher rpm.

Doing the math behind it, 4bar base, plus 21psi, comes to approx 80psi fuel pressure. A Single Bosch 044 fuel pump mounted off a surge tank does not have enough balls to run at this fuel pressure. Infact, a Bosch 044 is rated at 600hp in a forced induced setup. With nearly 400rwkw, it works out to be exceeding the pumps capabilities.

That was just an example on where Injector scalers "look wrong" due to fuel system problems. Obviously your experience will vary...

I hardly ever change speed density tables for these XR6 turbos. Ford got the calibration real good. I have however seen examples where people change the High rpm speed density values to cater for the ford running richer in higher rpm. But here's a brief explanation why this happens, and why changing the speed density tables is engineeringly incorrect.

Remember what I said above about fuel pump not being adequate. Let’s take an example of a car. A XR6 turbo, with nothing but a good intercooler and set of injectors. Having a standard actuator will result in a typical boost curve coming in, and spiking at say 15psi, and tapering off down to 9psi high in the RPM. Think about what I said before about fuel pumps being able to flow more at lower pressures, or rather, running out of puff at higher fuel pressures. Boost coming in at 15psi would put a burden on the fuel pump given the fuel pressure is rising with boost, and then when boost comes back down to 9psi, relieving some of that burden on the pump and it pumps the fuel easier, its going to show say 12.2 afr's midrange, and 11.9 afr's top end. It’s a case like that where I’ve seen tuners adjust the higher rpm speed density tables, or even the speed density correction table, which I’ve seen people incorrectly use (but that’s a different story). Usually this is evident with standard fuel pumps, where the pressure relief valve is starting to spring open.

In my vehicle, I have a 044 Bosch with a surge tank from process west. I run approx 16 to 17psi on united 100 fuel. as its coming up to end of pump if I push the boost up higher, my commanded afr's is flat, as my resulting afr out the tailpipe is nearly flat, it does slightly sway leaner high RPM, but that’s pump related, not incorrectly adjusted speed density tables.

Edited 25/03/09 02:56 AM by Headsex

[01txr]

Yes 60lb Deka's, fuel should be fine as I have run it to 6200 in 3rd with 12.4 AFR all the way.

Pump is a unknown Walbro previous owner fitted.

problem is Idle and Low RPM Cruise and WOT

Idle is fluctuating 14.6 to 15.8 cruise similar instant off throttle goes anywhere upto

18's with WOT at 2000rpm 13.3 (No Det) and from approx 3000 up 12.4.

I have found adjusting the Base Fuel table has got me to richer idle/cruise.

Base Fuel Table is so closely adjusted now.

TP0 @1000 .928 to TP500 .868

TP0 @3000 .882 to TP500 .811

TP0 @6000 .911 to TP500 .800

If this is commanded lambda it confuses me as tried setting all to .82 and all that happened

was a very all over the place fuel AFR reading.

If it is Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio it is set to 14.639.

What I was on about with the :-

(Fuel Injector Minium Pulse Width is a problem as I can only set as far as .001

I am using the advantage 3 software - Racer Pro.0

Is that the Advantage 3 wont let me adjust to 1.391 (ms) or as with the program .001391.

.001 is at its maxium setting.

I am thinking this maybe why I have lean idle/cruise.

When I first fitted the Plazmaman gear I tested it with old tune still loaded which

resulted in extreme rich 10 Flat AFR's off idle drive with 10.7 Idle, cruise was low 11's with

WOT being 11.9's.

This tune was running extremely well if 14.6-15.1 was good idle cruise with

WOT 2000rpm 12.4 going to 12.1 WOT from approx 2500rpm.

Those settings where

Fuel injector breakpoint 0.0000165

Fuel Injector Hi Slope 0.0190000

Fuel Injector Low Slope 0.0154999

Fuel Injector Minium Pilse Width 0.0003999

Fuel Injector Minium Pilse Width 0.0003999 being alot smaller value than the Deka setting

but with the voltage table settings is this suppose to even out or maybe my fuel pump is

low on flow but has pressure to support up high.

Therefore the lower value low slopes I used to the ones you suggested for the nizpro injectors

being the reason.

I am going to lower the value of the Lowslope and see what happens from there.

Will post you on the outcome tomorrow.

By the way fitting the Plazmaman plenum and pipe work with the HDI cooler has made a huge differance.

Have to think of fitting semi slicks now.

its turning the 265x30x19 Toyo Proxy 4's hard coming on boost in second.

Going to watch out for broken driveshafts now. will do a 8-10psi tune for street use so the standard

fragile motor doesn't let a rod fly before my good engine goes in.

[O2STOCK]

Ahh Memories

I remember back a few years ago the phone call to you Danny while the car was on the dyno....... the best 5 min advise I ever got during the whole project.

Good to see it in black and white.

[Headsex]

Here is the updated 80lb injector Spec sheet.. Look at the major differences from the original.

Here are the scalers as computed for our fuel presure of 4bar base (58psi)

The all important screenshots from Advantage

Injector Scalers

Injector Comp Batt Volt Offset

Edited 25/03/09 11:55 AM by Headsex