Liquid Gas Injection

[Worm]

Well, I can say it... All done...

Ended up running 2 X Walbro 600HP in tank fuel pumps to get enough gas to the injectors....

Car is running approx 350rwkw on 50/50 gas... Will be more on 100% propane...

Ben @ LPG Warehouse is going to take it again sometime to get the fuel ratios better, but it is running sweet as on gas... Not running lean :-)

Bad news... I dont think they are that keen to put out kits for it... They said it would be too expensive? I dont know why? Maybe $5-5.5k I reckon??? After rebate its not that bad and you will make you $$$ back quickly...

I guess you could always call Ben at the warehouse if you are keen... I didn't get a chance to ask him how much it would cost... But I might when I go back to visit...

So, overall, I have driven about 50kms on Liquid Gas... Thoughts so far... Wow... Compared to the old ring gas system it is unbelievable... The power is amazing... I would say it comes on as strong as petrol, if not with more torque... Very easy to spin the wheels up in first and 2nd... Drives smooth... Pulls like a stream train under hard throttle...

Now I just have to move the gauge inside from next to the gear stick to a more subtle place... I ended up buying another leather boot and plastic surround as where the gauge is now is gonna sh*t me... :-)

Anybody want anymore info, just post here or PM me... I will also be on the Vic Cruise in a couple of weeks...

[MiKa]

Mate awsome results...

Any chance of a system that runs straight gas? Or is some petrol needed?

[Worm]

I am pretty sure they could set it up to run straight gas...

At the moment, I have dual fuel, so it starts on petrol, so that my petrol lines/injectors are kept wet... :-)

I like the dual fuel, just in case... Its not really needed now, but if went round Australia years ago, there may not have been gas everywhere...

With petrol, if you run out of fuel, its easy just to get a can full... Gas isn't that easy...

With other Injected systems, like Vapour injection... when the engine is at high RPM it switches to petrol so it does not starve... With my liquid system, it stays on gas all the time... We did have to run twin fuel pumps though to get this to work to 300+ rwkw... I think it would only make 260-270 @ the treads with their stock injection kits...

The best thing is, it pulls like on petrol, something I have NEVER experienced even closely with other gas systems...

[ChoCCo]

Have to say I just put my BA T on Liquid gas about 2 weeks ago now like worm's setup and loving every second of it.

My car is stock (for the moment, RAPID's kit to arrive shortly) and I couldn't be happier, except I went for the smaller donut tank option to replace the spare wheel so boot space still exists (50ltrs) yet only get around 250km out of a tank.

My theory is that I was paying $95 per tank on petrol (450km), and now im paying $25 per tank of gas (250km), I know I have to fill up more often but I dont care.

250x2 = 500km; $50

love the savings!!

(of course now fuel being a bit cheaper, not that dramatic difference, but u never know with this economic crap what will happen)

Power wise, on the dyno I was pulling 165rwkw on petrol and pulled 168rwkw on gas (keep it mind that was after 8 or so runs on a 30ºC day, and the fitter couldn't get a bigger fan that day). Bottom end, yes petrol was better but the graph curves were pretty well matched through the midrange and top end. Once the new cooler and other bits and pieces are fitted, ill re-tune and dyno it and we'll c how it goes!

so final conclusion, I think the setup is definitely the way to go and if u plan to have your T for a while, you'll never regret filling it up for around $50 a week.

[PepeLePew]

Just as a vapour comparison....Ive had my BA on Sprintgas for 18 months now.

It ran up 240rwkw on petrol and 244rwkw on LPG. Running 8psi, its tuned to the 'peak' where the LPG 'just' feeds it. Anything less than a full tank of LPG and she will cross to petrol earlier down the rpm range as tank pressure drops. that's a weakness of the vapour setups, reliance on tank pressure. Though its entirely possible to add a external pump as was done on a car here in SA what made 335rwkw on SVI without changeover to petrol.

I dont have any economy comparisons as my car was stock pre tune, but she averages 13.5l/100 propane average speed 55km/h, better on regular autogas (under 13). She was tuned on regular autogas, but pulls harder/smoother on propane (it isnt night and day, just better). I CHOOSE to run it on LPG, cost aside. The car is smoother and pulls sweetly.

Vapour is like anything else, if you can feed the engine, it wont changeover. Injectors these days flow more than they used to....

Edited 01/12/08 01:13 AM by PepeLePew

[A.P.E]

Some misconceptions about LPG use should be expected because many opinions exist without measurement and proof but here is what I can tell you with the experience we have so far on Turbo XR6 and Territory turbo. I will not go into non turbo cars here because although we do so many, such cars are just low output variants that do not suffer the same issues as forced induction.

Our BA XR6T was the first to be done in Australia and I still use it as a daily driver with no complaints. We have tuned it to 353rwkw on our Mainline Dynolog dyno on petrol with the use of MGA Zavoli multipoint sequential vapor injection.

The tank is 55L useable behind rear seat so that added weight is kept between axles whilst offering the extra 2 litres or so storage that the donut does not offer. Such considerations were less important than having no spare or worse still, a loose spare in the boot just in case of a serious accident. (Personal experience keeps safety top of mind because the emotional cost of losing a loved one to a car accident is something no one should endure)

Melbourne to Adelaide RETURN cost almost $100 fuel when lpg was 56 cpl so the savings are well worth the effort.

City cycle is typically 330 to 380km range for the 55 litres depending on driving style and country has been consistently around 440kms for 55L

System sequentially shifts from lpg to petrol when exceeding a programmable rpm and load point simultaneously so to cruise on lpg then nail it past a truck will have it switching for you before going back to lpg when load and or rpm is dropped below programmed amounts. This works well to say the least. It is seamless and ensures low combustion temperatures. (Remember that lpg offers approx 30% higher demand on ignition systems and combustion temperatures than petrol) It may also have a higher octane but a lower calorific value means less bang for the same quantity. You may not wish to hear this with all of the bs about more power through higher octane but that is how it is with any vapor system.

The MGA system uses injectors that can be mounted individually instead of a fixed rail so much more flexible regarding how stealthy the conversion can be. The injectors are very quiet compared with almost all others. They also are serviceable so if you are an unlucky one to have contaminated lpg, then at least you have an affordable means of repair instead of an alarming cost for new injectors as is necessary on almost every other option out there. (Filters will not save you from that issue)

Territory turbo and falcon have been a common conversion for us for the last 4 years or more and we have enjoyed success for all of our clients with these vehicles. This means no come backs so we are happy and our clients are happy.

Sedans are typically between $4,500 - $5k for conversions including dyno time etc whereas Territory is more costly due to custom twin tank and spare wheel bracket, cover etc so not a cheap option in either vehicle. Spare wheel on the roof also risky to others in an accident so not advised. Keep your extra seats if you need them and stay on petrol or consider an engineered bracket if you wish to keep those seats in use. Don't take the risks.

LIQUID INJECTION

The obvious advantages should be a chilling effect of the air charge as it enters the combustion chamber due to lpg changing state from liquid to vapor at this point. I would expect improved power and possibly slightly improved efficiency.

Stability of this system is still one to monitor over time because they are quite new here in Australia.

A pump in the tank is something to expect requiring maintenance in time due to the dry fuel and the simple fact that any pump has a service life.

They claim 340rwkw out of these systems on XR6T so that is pretty good for gas supply. Only issue may be that if you find the limit, these systems DO NOT auto change to petrol. My advice may be to push the button if you are going to nail another XR6T or simply leave it on gas for the LS1 challengers.

Cost for these systems would be higher if you consider the pump but lower due to no lpg converter. End result seems to be just under $5k so quite comparable really.

Time will tell with the liquid systems just as it has with many vapor systems but early thoughts are that it should be advantageous for many reasons.

We are engine management and mapping specialists so accurate calibration and diagnosis of such things is a daily task for us with petrol and lpg. We will be attending the upcoming installer training session in Adelaide before fitting these conversions but remain optimistic of the outcome. I will keep you posted with pics etc if anyone found the above informative.

Brett

Adelaide Performance Engineers

(A division of Graham West Workshops Pty Ltd)

[anthony256]

Thanks for that Brett and thanks for your replies over email. I will call up shortly to book my car in

[Pube]

A.P.E.

Good information you have there, but it seems a little out dated? When you are talking about the liquid system, are you talking about the JTG system? There is no way you will be getting anywhere near 340rwkw and you wont be swapping over to petrol when you nail it. The start on petrol and auto swap to gas and remain on gas. Turboworm has pushed this system to its limits, full time gas.

[anthony256]

Got my BA in yesterday for the conversion, should have it back hopefully before Easter

[anthony256]

All installed, looks great, few problems though;

Very grindy at high speed (80kmph+).

Cuts in and out and feels like it's going to stall most of the time.

Very flakey, can't put my foot down without it slowing down/lots of power/feels like it's going to stall/grindy/then lots of power.

~135km's done on a 65lt tank, red light has now come on.

Not impressed so far :(

But it was Graham West's first LPG install, I tried ringing yesterday but Brett wasn't in, will ring again on Monday, I'm hoping I don't need to wait 2 - 3 weeks to book it in, I'd feel as though it's a waste of nearly $6k.