Gas Xr6 Turbo

[Harpoon]

Hi

Just a general question that someone with appropriate automotive engineering expertise or someone who has insight into Ford marketing and how that drives engineering.

With the price of petrol going to towards the heavens, why has FORD NOT released a Gas Turbo XR6 ?

It would make intuitive sense to me.

As a basic set of thoughts. Petrol has to be vaporised when injected into the cylinders before combustion, gas is already a vapor so it does not have to be vaporised. It would make intuitive sense that there would be a saving in machinery required to vaporise gas. I appreciate there would be less kilojoules in gas so more would have to be pumped in to the cylinder to give teh same bag as petrol, therefore a turbo would assist in this space.

Anyone know why Ford has not made a turbo Xr6 Gas ???

Harpoon

[senna_T]

Put simply, COST!

Currently Ford Motor Company don't have an injected gas system in their model line up. The cost of developing this system would put people off. The average aftermarket injected gas system for a turbo falcon would cost around $4500 installed and tuned. Throwing an extra $5000 on top of the T would make it prohibitively expensive for alot of people. Plus the ZF 6spd auto isn't configured to work with gas so you'd have to go back to the 4spd.

The other down side is that the Dynamic Stability Control and Traction control would be quite hard to configure to the gas system. One last downside is that you lose half of your boot when the gas tanks are fitted.

Can't think of any other reasons at the moment...

[Fat-Tony]

LPG is stored as a liquid not a vapor. What do you think gas converters are for

Edited 07/06/08 11:40 AM by Fatsex

[Guest EGOXRT]

Say good bye to the large car market in Australia...

[Iconic Bionic]

Very true in the years to come. Already highly evident and very sad.

Nearly wrote me car off a few days ago with a truck that failed to give way and made me think would I get another T or lagre car and I dont think so.

I.B.

[smicky]

I.B. I bet you would... Just like most of us... we wouldn't be able to say NO! - if only for a weekend rise, I bet there would still be one somewhere!

[Harpoon]

Put simply, COST!

Currently Ford Motor Company don't have an injected gas system in their model line up. The cost of developing this system would put people off. The average aftermarket injected gas system for a turbo falcon would cost around $4500 installed and tuned. Throwing an extra $5000 on top of the T would make it prohibitively expensive for alot of people. Plus the ZF 6spd auto isn't configured to work with gas so you'd have to go back to the 4spd.

The other down side is that the Dynamic Stability Control and Traction control would be quite hard to configure to the gas system. One last downside is that you lose half of your boot when the gas tanks are fitted.

Can't think of any other reasons at the moment...

Hi

Thanks for the reply..

I f I may reply.

Ford have an EGas Model with the XT. Aka the web page. The ford web site does not have the specs so I do not know what the gas fuel delivery system is in use. However one would think with the evolution of gas and fuel systems over the past decade it would be a dedicated fuel injection system. I stand to be corected if the specs prove to be against my assertion.

Why would the cost be putting people off ?? They already have a gas model ford developed and using a gas system. Aka selling an XT Egas model.

Ford Taxis have been using gas now for years.

The gas cylinder or storage tank would replace the fuel tank so any space lost in gas would be claimed back by removal of petrol tank.

Do not understand the comment about the ZF 6 speed. Surely it is a matter of tuning and modifying the motor ECU and the valve body timings on the ZF auto ??

Hmm.. Dynamic stability control.. That one I do not understand must be because of the placement of the gas tank on the Egas XT inhibits the suspension system.

I suggest that the issues mentioned are minor and in a major production run would be not a huge financial impost in the production of a Gas Turbo Ford.

Just my thoughts.

Harpoon

[Venom XR6]

Injected LPG will come with the V6. And becuse its computer controlled it will work with all gearboxes and TC/DSC, unlike the current stone age setup. Might be pricier but it will be streets ahead, power should be nearly identical tothe petrol powered version.

Probably won't be on Turbo models though as they will most likely be direct injection only.

You can get aftermarket LPG injection systems now, I've heard of a few BA Turbos using it with no loss of power, and one has been tuned up to around 280rwkw. It might cost 4 grand or therabouts but you get the 2 grand government rebate, so it should pay for itself within a year due to fuel savings. Pretty smart way to go, way better than a Hybrid which is just a con.

[senna_T]

Hi

Thanks for the reply..

I f I may reply.

Ford have an EGas Model with the XT. Aka the web page. The ford web site does not have the specs so I do not know what the gas fuel delivery system is in use. However one would think with the evolution of gas and fuel systems over the past decade it would be a dedicated fuel injection system. I stand to be corected if the specs prove to be against my assertion. The current system is a converter style "Fogging System" Similar to the way a carburettor works (gas and air in together)

Why would the cost be putting people off ?? They already have a gas model ford developed and using a gas system. Aka selling an XT Egas model. Do you know AKA means Also Known As? Also there is talk of the LPG rebate being abolished, which would put alot of people off, also the reabate is only $1000 for a new vehicle, so people would still be spending ~$3000 over the petrol version.

Ford Taxis have been using gas now for years. Yes they have

The gas cylinder or storage tank would replace the fuel tank so any space lost in gas would be claimed back by removal of petrol tank. This is true, but LPG doesn't have the same combustible energy as Petrol, so to get the same mileage or range out of an LPG vehicle you need to fit it with bigger fuel tanks (95L up from 68L) This is why you lose boot space.

Do not understand the comment about the ZF 6 speed. Surely it is a matter of tuning and modifying the motor ECU and the valve body timings on the ZF auto ?? Possibly, but it is money Ford aren't willing to spend

Hmm.. Dynamic stability control.. That one I do not understand must be because of the placement of the gas tank on the Egas XT inhibits the suspension system. It has to do with the fact that DSC controls wheel spin by cutting torque and power to the driven wheels, it does this in a petrol car by limiting the injectors and the throttle opening. Because an LPG car doesn't have injectors, and the converter can't be conotrolled precisely enough, this can't be done/

I suggest that the issues mentioned are minor and in a major production run would be not a huge financial impost in the production of a Gas Turbo Ford. Unfortunately the current engine would be a large investment in money, and as Venom XR6 mentioned, with the new engine coming in only two years, the cost would be prohibitive.

Just my thoughts.

Harpoon

Cheers

[profrat]

I f I may also reply.

Why would the cost be putting people off ?? They already have a gas model ford developed and using a gas system. Aka selling an XT Egas model. Do you know AKA means Also Known As? Also there is talk of the LPG rebate being abolished, which would put alot of people off, also the reabate is only $1000 for a new vehicle, so people would still be spending ~$3000 over the petrol version.

True, the rebate is only $1000 on a new car but with the savings of mass production and being able to integrate all the current transmissions and traction/stability systems there would be big savings in the factory as well. The new systems use the same computer and hence all the systems controlled by the computer would operate as normal

The gas cylinder or storage tank would replace the fuel tank so any space lost in gas would be claimed back by removal of petrol tank. This is true, but LPG doesn't have the same combustible energy as Petrol, so to get the same mileage or range out of an LPG vehicle you need to fit it with bigger fuel tanks (95L up from 68L) This is why you lose boot space.

Also true but in a dedicated gas system you do not loose anywhere as much space as with dual fuel

Do not understand the comment about the ZF 6 speed. Surely it is a matter of tuning and modifying the motor ECU and the valve body timings on the ZF auto ?? Possibly, but it is money Ford aren't willing to spend

No need to fit the 4 speed or spend money on the 6 speed as the new systems work with the electronics of the 6 speed box. Big saving as they only need to set up for one box.

Hmm.. Dynamic stability control.. That one I do not understand must be because of the placement of the gas tank on the Egas XT inhibits the suspension system. It has to do with the fact that DSC controls wheel spin by cutting torque and power to the driven wheels, it does this in a petrol car by limiting the injectors and the throttle opening. Because an LPG car doesn't have injectors, and the converter can't be controlled precisely enough, this can't be done/

But of course DSC would work with a gas injection system

I suggest that the issues mentioned are minor and in a major production run would be not a huge financial impost in the production of a Gas Turbo Ford. Unfortunately the current engine would be a large investment in money, and as Venom XR6 mentioned, with the new engine coming in only two years, the cost would be prohibitive.

I would argue that to upgrade the current gas system would not necessarily be prohibitively expensive, but I can see how the company would be wanting to put all their efforts into the next generation engine. I have always wondered why the gas car costs more anyhow given that all those expensive Petrol fuel systems can be left off and they use the cheap gearbox. If anything, it should be cheaper!

Just my thoughts. Profrat