Sly's General Questions

[Slymeat]

Here is the answers thread where all questions and answers will be posted for quick reference.

If you would like to ask a question it can be done in the Sly's General Questions, The Discussion thread.

Now onto the questions...

For those that are interested I have done some research in relation to fog lights, to answer all the questions that people have had. I have concentrated on providing the information that appears relevant with minimal additions by way of my own opinion. So that the reader should be able to come to there own conclusion. If you can’t, the conclusion at the bottom is correct.

This research is based on NSW law but that said the relevant legislation is contained within the so called national road rules which are generally accepted in most states in there complete form all though there are some amendments from state to state. In this case I believe this legislation carries in its complete form from one state to another. In the case that it doesn’t I will not be researching each state individually as it is a time consuming process and you guys don’t pay me enough. I have also tried to keep my own opinion out of this document to a degree.

Fog Lights.

The Facts.

In preparing this document I have researched the following documents and judgments. As well as using a bit of common sense and experience.

Unreported Judgments – 2003-Lamont v Keenan, [2003] WASCA 82 – 11 April 2003

Motor Vehicles/ Motor Vehicle Law (NSW) – M Britts/1. AUSTRALIAN ROAD RULES/ Australian Road Rules/ Part 13 A – LIGHTS AND WARNING DEVICES/ Division 1 A- Lights on Vehicles (except bicycles, animals and animal-drawn vehicles)/ [ARR.2180]217 Using rear fog lights.

Motor Vehicle Law (NSW) – M.Britts/ 2B ROAD TRANSPORT (VEHICLE REGISTRATION) REG/Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 1998/CHAPTER 7 A- MISCELLANEOUS/[2B.980] SCHEDULE 4 A- VEHICLE STANDARDS/[2B.998/4] PART 11 A- OTHER MATTERS/ Interpretation of certain second edition ADRs.

Motor Vehicle LAW (NSW) – M Britts/7. LOCAL GOVERNMENT, ROADS/Road Transport (Mass, Loading and Access) Regulation 2005/ [7.4910] Dictionary.

ROAD TRANSPORT (SAFETY AND TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT) (ROAD RULES) Regulation 1999- No.623- Updated 1 JULY 2006 / Part 3 Additional NSW road rules / Division 5 Lights on vehicles / 55 Lights on motor vehicles generally.

To start off there have been some serious issues with the current traffic acts, to the extent that the definition although mentioned in the act as being defined it was for some reason neglected or excluded, even though the offence was created. Before anyone gets to excited this has already been tested in the Supreme Court and a definition has been made available through case law. Although Fog Lamps are specifically mentioned and now adopted as being the same by ADR ver4. as stated later in this document.

Definition:” A front fog light is a second set of lights, not being spot lights or parking lights, independently operated, which formed part of the front bumper assembly for the purpose of giving more light in fog of hazardous weather conditions, and with a power exceeding 7 watts, emitting white or yellow light to the front.” [2005 Lawbook Co. a part of Thomson Legal & Regulatory Limited ABN 64 058 914 668. from the case of Lamont v Keenan in the Supreme Court of Western Australia. This definition was brought about by the failure of Parliament to explicitly express a definition in the Road Transport Safety and Traffic Management Road rules of 1999, but has since been adopted due to case law.

This did not become an issue in the acts for rear fog lights which are clearly defined,

“A rear fog light means a light fitted to a vehicle to make it more easily visible from the rear in fog.”

With the forth edition of the ADR’s the term front fog lamp was replaced with the term front fog light.

“ADR (Australian Design Rule) means a national standard under the Motor Vehicle Standards Act 1989 of the Commonwealth.”

The next problem with the act was that it identified the positioning of the low beam lights to the fog lights if fitted but it did not ratify the positioning of the fog light. That being said fog lights are designed to overcome the short comings of the low beams and illuminate the fog lines on the road closer to the front of the vehicle thus lighting the ground within the first 8 m after the headlights at which time the headlight then take over illumination duties. If the fog lights extend into the zone after 8 m they are not properly fitted and therefore defective.

“low beam in relation to a headlight or front fog light fitted to a vehicle, means built or adjusted so that, when the vehicle is standing on level ground, the top of the main beam of the light projected is:

(a) not higher than the centre of the headlight or fog light when measured at a point 8 m in front of the vehicle, and

(b) not more than 1 meter higher than the level on which the motor vehicle is standing, when measured at a point 25 m in front of the vehicle. As illustrated in figure 1.

Figure 1:

Relevant Legislation:

Next we have to look at the relevant legislation that the police act under when issuing infringements for the use of fog lights. Which are clear and easy to understand, although some of this legislation is not immediately relevant I added to prevent further questions down the track.

“(cf MTR, r95 (6))

A person must not cause or permit:

(a) any fog light affixed to a motor vehicle on a road to be lighted except in fog, mist or under atmospheric conditions that restrict visibility, or

(d) any spot or search light affixed to a motor vehicle on a road to be lighted unless:

(I) the vehicle is stationary and the light is lighted and used only for the purpose of examining or making adjustments or repairs to a vehicle, and the light from the light in not projected more than 6m,

Or

(ii) the light is lighted for the temporary purpose of reading any finger or notice board or house number,

Or

(iii) the vehicle is being driven or used by a police officer in the performance of his or her duty,

Or

(iv) the vehicle is being used by a government or semi-governmental or local government or other authority in connection with its functions,

Or

any additional headlight permitted to be fitted to a motor vehicle by Schedule 4 to the Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 1998 to be lighted when the vehicle is being driven on a length of road for which there is provision for the lighting by means of road lighting or when approaching vehicle is visible to it’s driver,

Or

(c1) any headlight or additional headlight permitted to be fitted to a motor vehicle by clause 85 (6) of schedule 4 to the Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 1998 to flash unless:

(I) the vehicle is being used to respond to an emergency, and

(ii) the vehicle is being driven by a person who is authorised to drive the vehicle and wears a badge or other distinguishing mark indicating that authority, or

(d) any light permitted to be fitted to a motor vehicle or trailer by clause 123(4)-(7) of Schedule 4 to the Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 1998 to be lighted unless:

(I) the vehicle is standing in a hazardous position or moving in hazardous circumstances, or

(ii) the vehicle is an ambulance, police vehicle, fire fighting vehicle, mines rescue or other rescue vehicle, Red Cross vehicle or another emergency vehicle within the meaning of the Australian Road Rules that is being used for urgent purposes arising from an accident, fire or other emergency, or

(iii) the vehicle is a motor vehicle or trailer that is transporting any loading that exceeds maximum length, width or height limits set out in schedule 4 to the Road Transport ( Vehicle Registration ) Regulation 19998 or any other vehicle used to escort such vehicles and either vehicle is being used for such purposes, or

(iv) the vehicle is being used by the authority for law enforcement purposes, or

(e) any device referred to in clause 124 (1) or (2) of schedule 4 to the Road Transport ( Vehicle Registration ) Regulation 1998 or any hazard warning signal complying with the requirements of the ADR (3rd edition) relating to the installation of lighting and light- signalling devices to operate:

(I) on a vehicle ( other than a bus ) unless the vehicle is standing in a hazardous position or moving in hazardous conditions, or

(ii) on a bus unless the bus is standing in a hazardous position or moving in hazardous conditions or while the bus is stopped to allow a person to alight from or enter it.”

Maximum penalty: 20 penalty unit.ie- $500

( Quoted from ROAD TRANSPORT (SAFETY AND TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT) (ROAD RULES) Regulation 1999- No.623- Updated 1 July 2006/ Part 3 Additional NSW road rules / Division 5 Lights on vehicles / 55 Lights on motor vehicles generally.

All this information is available to any person who is prepared to look with a little patience.

www.lawbookco.com.au

www.lawone.timebase.com.au

Conclusion:

Yes it is illegal to drive with your fog lights on whether by day or night, unless there is fog, rain, or sandstorm. No the lights that come on with turn signals are not fog lights as they are low wattage and are not operated by a separate switch so are permitted. Yes fog lights are any light that is fitted to the bumper assay or below unless otherwise stipulated by a relevant ADR as in Spot lights. (No Cro’s fog lights do not comply refer to diagram1). Yes if you get a ticket you do deserve it. If you are not happy with the current legislation you can of course go to your local member of parliament who will probably do nothing not that it would matter anyway, this one is set in concrete. Yes any person on the forum who still persists in using there w*&ker lights should be beaten over the head with a thickly bound copy of the legislation.

P.S. this is a guide only even though it is straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak, I am not interested in arguing the point just in supplying the facts once and for all. Any question you can ask in relation to this topic should be supplied above for those that want to find out about the schedules look to the two law links I have supplied above.

All good information and Slymeat I commend you on this thread.

I have a few questions regariding the use of fog lights. In the above information it states " A front fog light is a second set of lights, not being spot lights or parking lights, independently operated, which formed part of the front bumper assembly for the purpose of giving more light in fog of hazardous weather conditions, and with a power exceeding 7 watts, emitting white or yellow light to the front"

Now how will an officer deem that a motorist is using a fog light that exceeds 7 watts? is this figure for one light or the total power consumption of the lights? Finally how can a officer of the law be allowed to use these lights? like I have seen many times

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The 7 watts is the combined total of all lights operating including the headlights usless I agree. For the next part I refer you to r95 (6) d (iii) a police officer is excempt, although I would not regard it as good manners and I wouldn't do it.

[Slymeat]

I think also pertinent to this forum is the use of BOVs... do you have the information on this?

To obtain this information I have taken excerpts from the Road Transport (vehicle registration) regulation 1998 no. 341 where possible I have quoted directly.

Bov - The Facts:

Definition:

safety risk - is defined in the act to mean a danger to a person, property or to the environment.

BOV - Blow off valve.

EPA - Environmental Protection Authority (The ones who hand out the big fines).

Chapter 5 part 5

‘7 Issue of defect notices and formal warnings.

(1) A vehicle defect notice may be stated to be:

(a) a major vehicle defect notice, if, in the reasonable opinion of the person issuing the notice, the further use of the registrable vehicle in road transport after the time specified in the notice would constitute an imminent and serious safety risk,or

(b) minor vehicle defect notice, if, in the reasonable opinion of the person issuing the notice, the further use of the registrable vehicle in road transport after the time specified in the notice may constitutes a safety risk.’

Chapter 7 part 1

‘84(2) A person must not use, or permit the use of a registrable vehicle in breach of a condition of a defect notice.

Maximum Penalty: 20 Penalty Units.’

Division 1

‘153 (2) The vehicle must be built to prevent, or fitted with equipment that prevents, crank case gasses from escaping to the atmosphere.’

Division 3

‘156 A motor propelled by an internal combustion engine must be fitted with a silencing device through which all the exhaust from the engine passes.’

Also all vehicles fitted with BOV’s must comply with epa regulations in relation to noise and emissions.

This section is probably one of the hardest to swallow for most car enthusiasts as it is a bit of a blanket cover just in case new things come about in the future instead of naming precise items that it refers to. Basically if it is fitted to the intake, crankcase or exhaust system of a vehicle in any way then all gasses must vented through the exhaust system, otherwise it is deemed defective. The only justification needed is that the authority issuing the notice need only have a reasonable idea in there own mind, in the case it is not affixed as stated above. I do not claim to have an extensive knowledge of how BOV operate, but I do know that for them to remain legal they should be plumbed back. A quick check of the highway office revealed that most were not interested but would defect if the need arised this is probably a matter of just saying yes sir no sir thank you sir etc, and you should be fine most of the time as long as it is not ridiculously loud.

[Slymeat]

Say an L-plater was caught driving alone in his parent's car. What kind of charges could they face if he/she admitted to taking the car without their parent's consent, and if you have dealt with something along these lines, what would you think the outcome would be?

This is an easy one...

Charges could be:

+ Illegal use of motor vehicle (same as stealing motor vehicle, except there is no intent to permanently deprive same penalty though).

+ Learner Unaccompanied.

The Illegal use can be dealt with by way of a caution if the learner is a juvenile with no criminal record for an adult this is not an option. If police charge for the illegal use they must charge and not infringe for the learner unaccompanied. When a caution is given they can issue a ticked for the unaccompanied. This all depends on the owner saying they didn't give permission. If the owner stated they did give permission the driver gets the learner unaccompanied and the owner gets an owner permit learner unaccompanied.

[Slymeat]

Sly, thanks for offering up the opportunity to get some facts straight about the road laws.  It is crazy how missinformation can make people think they know the law.

I have a couple of questions:

What would you do if you pulled a car over you suspected of using a Radar detector, but could not visably see ?

Can you search the car ?

What happens if you cannot find one ?

How many radar detector detectors are there in NSW HWP vehicles ?

Keep up the fine work

Yes you can search the car if you have reason to believe there is a detector in the car as it is an illegal item. If you are using the detector detector you would just keep looking until you found it, because you know it's there. If you can’t find it then “ok nothing found thanks for your time.” I do not know how many detectors there are I don't think I would even be able to find out as it is not something I really need to know and I think it would be wrong to post it if I did find out, some things are just secret. I will check the legislation about dismantling cars when a detector has been detected to fully answer the question.

Radar Detectors.

In preparing this document I have researched:

The Road Transport Safety and Traffic Management ACT 1999 no. 623 of 2006

The Australian road rules - updated 2 May 2003 and published by www.lawone.timebase.com.au

Note: The Road Transport Safety and Traffic Management - Road Rules & Regulation 1999, regulation 6 incorporate the Australian Road Rules into NSW law.

Definitions:

“Radar detecting device” means a device designed or apparently designed to be fitted to or carried in a motor vehicle or trailer for the purpose of detecting electromagnetic radiations from an approved speed measuring device.

“Radar jamming device” means a device designed or apparently designed to be fitted to or carried in a motor vehicle or trailer for the purpose of interfering with the receiving by an approved speed measuring device of reflected electromagnetic radiations.’

Offence:

225 of the Australian Road Rules as updated on the 2 May 2003:

(1) A person must not drive a vehicle if the vehicle has in or on it a device for preventing the effective use of a speed measuring device, or a device for detecting the use of a speed measuring device, unless the person is exempt from this rule under another law of this jurisdiction.

Offence provision:

Drive includes to be in control off.

(2) Sub rule (1) applies whether or not the device is operating or in working order.

Under the law of this jurisdiction, radar detectors and similar devices may be subject to confiscation. This is not exactly true as police cannot leave the device in the vehicle and must remove otherwise there would be a continuance of the offence; realistically it should read “will” be subject to confiscation not “may be”.

If a police officer has a reasonable belief that there is a radar detector in a motor vehicle he has the power to stop search and detain the vehicle for the purpose of locating the device. In this instance if the device was electronically detected by an approved police device then there would automatically a reasonable belief, and no need to use any other method in coming to the belief. This power comes from Section 357 (1)(b)and © of the Crimes act 1900 no.40 as the vehicle is suspected of carrying an item that could be used for an offence, or is committing an offence. This was all ratified in Division 5 section 36 (1) of LEPRA which came out in 2005.

[Slymeat]

Sly, I see you're a NSW officer so you'd have good knowledge of this. Pertains to Jetonit's question.

A 22 Y/O Learner Drive (late starter, hasn't lost licence before) is caught driving a car from the inspection station to his house with no supervising driver.

Was charged with 'Unregistered Car', 'Uninsured Car' and 'Unlicensed Driver'. However, he DIDN'T loose he L's? $1600 odd in fines but no loss of licence.

He rang once (and only once) to verify he still had his L's but doesn't want to rock the boat. He will be booking for his P Plates soon but Im wondering if this will rear its head at all?

There is a good chance it will rear it's ugly head the RTA sometimes takes it's time before they issue the suspension, also the other side of the ticket has to be sent on before they process it. If he has not yet paid the fine he will not yet be suspended, unless 6 months have passed.

[Slymeat]

Cheers for the thread Sly, well done.

Can you be charged with dangerous driving or a higher offence if it is proved that you have modified your car and have an accident that involves an injury or death, without telling your insurance acency....?

Do you investigate T's or similar in road accidents for mods like edits, gutted cats etc.....?

The first part needs more info to answer, although the whole idea of dangerous driving is the act of driving in a manner that is deemed to be dangerous. I'll add the reasons later which should answer your question.

However, I think it would be doubtful as your insurance company has nothing to do with your manner of driving, you may have your policy rejected though.

As for investigating cars for mods the short answer is no.

In preparing this document I make reference to:

Guiseppe Giogianni v The Queen (1985) CLR 473 High Court of Australia

Proudman v Dayman (1941) 67 CLR 536

Bateman v Evans (1964) 108 Sol Jo 522

www.rta.nsw.gov.au

When making modifications to vehicles you must be aware of what constitutes a legal and roadworthy modification.

“The act of driving in a manner dangerous refers to the actual behaviour of the driver and does not require any given state of mind.”

“The actual perpetrator may be convicted in the absence of knowledge.”

The court held that it is an offence to permit a particular state of things although honest and reasonable mistake of fact will exculpate the accused.

An improper modification to any of the listed items as well as acts of obvious neglect can be used to determine whether or not a driver was driving in a manner dangerous.

Although this is usually only for major modifications, advice should be sought from a qualified mechanic as to the RTA’s requirements.

Listed items:

Fuel System Braking System

Body, Chassis or Frame Engine

Driving Controls or Aids Intake / Exhaust

Seating or Occupant Protection Transmission or Driveline

Lighting System Steering System

Wheels, Tyres or Axles. Suspension

Some items as stated above if they are minor can be self verified ( This can be checked on the RTA web site.), otherwise they can be checked by an engineer using the ECS or VCCS schemes gaining rta approval as a peace of mind or by requirement. If RTA approval is sought and obtained then the top statement is negated.

This is only a broad overview and other things need to be taken into account for this type of offence which will not be discussed here.

So the answer is yes the driver of an modified vehicle can be charged with dangerous driving, although this would only become an issue with obvious negligent actions I.e. - removing rear brakes, fitting rocket engines, not fitting equipment properly with the correct fasteners and things similar were the act is not one that would be done by a reasonable and prudent person. That said if proper approval is sought for the modifications then the modification are said to be legal and this can no longer be taken into account. The owner of the vehicle can also be charged if another person is driving having been given permission to do so, or asked to do so when the vehicle is deemed to be dangerously defective and the owner should have reasonable knowledge of the dangerous condition of the vehicle.

There is no mention of software, so those with the edit like me are o.k. remembers though the test is that of the reasonable and prudent person, so some things go without saying and as such there is no definitive list. That said; think would grandad do it or would he think it was dangerous.

[Slymeat]

Good on you Slymeat for starting this thread.

I have a question for you which I think I know the answer to but you may like to go into a little bit more detail.

How would somebody deal with people who abuse you while you drive your car from inside of their car?

I'm talking about such things as language, spitting at you, throwing items from their car for the purpose of damaging your car, speeding past you then getting in front of you and pulling the hand brake?

There is a specific offence for road rage, report it and if everything falls in place and there is sufficient evidence then they should be charged with that offence, although language alone does not make the grade the other things may well do remembering all incitements must be looked at in there entirety before the charging process. Same thing goes if your car is damaged by a missile the offence would be Malicious Damage. There are protocols in place to find out who was driving and who the passengers were in certain circumstances although they do not always work.

[Slymeat]

Does your answer only state that for NSW or is it australia in general just in case victoria has different laws?

We do use an abridged version of the Australian road rules, some offences are found within the same act although not all, the act that is used in NSW for traffic was actually written in Victoria so they are very similar each has some small particular offences that are not the same from state to state but all in all are pretty much the same. I would not take the advice as being definitive in Victoria though but might give you a place to start.

[Slymeat]

If I lose my licence for speeding in NSW can I still drive in QLD?

No you can't these systems are now liked Australia wide, changed in 1999.

I beg to differ, I happen to know of a few people who have lost a licence in one state and have been able to swap residence and licence to another state and retain the ability to drive in that different state. That said you cant drive in the state yoru licence is supended in apparently, but you still retain a licence and the ability to drive in your new state of residence.

Im not sure this is 100% correct, you can swap your licence over but you would still have to serve your suspension time. For some of the states that don't have a direct link this may not become apparent until you were involved in an incident, but they are now definately linked, I may have got the year wrong though we'll see. This is what I have been told by the powers that be.

[Slymeat]

On that...if I lose my licence for speeding in NSW can I still drive in QLD....?

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No you can't these systems are now liked Australia wide, changed in 1999.

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I beg to differ, I happen to know of a few people who have lost a licence in one state and have been able to swap residence and licence to another state and retain the ability to drive in that different state. That said you cant drive in the state yoru licence is supended in apparently, but you still retain a licence and the ability to drive in your new state of residence.

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Im not sure this is 100% correct, you can swap your licence over but you would still have to serve your suspension time. For some of the states that don't have a direct link this may not become apparent until you were involved in an incident, but they are now definately linked, I may have got the year wrong though we'll see. This is what I have been told by the powers that be.