Ems Vs Edit

[rob82]

What your negelecting to understand is that the factory managment has PI/PID loops that control closed loop fueling, boost, idle and cam control.

dw....ems can do these as per ba other than throttle control

It also has a model of how much air is in the chamber at any moment in time.  Its fueling is based on a linear approximation of fuel flow at each cam position - meaning that once you know the fuel equation you can change/tune the cam postions and you dont need to change the fueling.

dw....this again is load sensing of choice!!! as to aproximations don't you really mean guesstimations????

Hell I dont trust motec's cam control (at least not on subi's) let alone a company with not even half the budget or workforce.

dw....we finally agree on something

Not to mention the biggest advantage - knock sensor controlled igntion!!!! 

dw.... definately a function that once perfected will be good even sct inthe training manual state that it doe not function corectly!!!!!

Biggest downfall to the Flash - no live tuning.

dw....amen

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rob you seem clued up on a lot maybe we should chat call me 0422 452 007

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Pm sent.

[Guest]

What your negelecting to understand is that the factory managment has PI/PID loops that control closed loop fueling, boost, idle and cam control.

dw....ems can do these as per ba other than throttle control

It also has a model of how much air is in the chamber at any moment in time.  Its fueling is based on a linear approximation of fuel flow at each cam position - meaning that once you know the fuel equation you can change/tune the cam postions and you dont need to change the fueling.

dw....this again is load sensing of choice!!! as to aproximations don't you really mean guesstimations????

Hell I dont trust motec's cam control (at least not on subi's) let alone a company with not even half the budget or workforce.

dw....we finally agree on something

Not to mention the biggest advantage - knock sensor controlled igntion!!!! 

dw.... definately a function that once perfected will be good even sct inthe training manual state that it doe not function corectly!!!!!

Biggest downfall to the Flash - no live tuning.

dw....amen

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rob you seem clued up on a lot maybe we should chat call me 0422 452 007

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Pm sent.

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replied

[turbotrana]

Certainly aftermarket EMSs are not as sophisticated but sometimes that's a good thing. Too many adjustable parameters can cost you heaps of time for minimal benefit.

The EMS8860 is getting to that point where it nearly has everything you need without going over the top in complexities.

You only find out where the shortfalls are when you start using it.

[Nizpro]

I’m glad to say I haven’t used a EMS for many years, as my experience with the early ones lead me to believe they had a lot of catching up to do when compared to MoTeC

Now I do have plenty of experience with MoTeC and for a number of years was the largest MoTeC dealer in Australia and their number one fan. Anyone that knows our history with the Barra 6 T will know that all our development engines and cars were run using MoTeC and almost all people out there would also agree that the MoTeC range of ECU’s are at the top of the after market tree. Now most including EMS and please Nick correct me if I’m wrong use a very similar strategy when it comes to the way the process their in coming signals. They count rpm vs either throttle position or manifold pressure and from there look up a 3D map to them determine pulse width in the fuelling side of thing or spark advance for ignition.

So for now forget cam control, boost control and Drive by wirer, lets just look at the first two, spark and fuel and I have some bad news for you. The majority of these system are very poor in comparison to the factory systems ,forget narrow band close loop fuel control this is simply to keep the catalytic converter alight. The simple fact of the matter is the after market system lacks fuel control at different acceleration rate.

Example if you map the whole engine in steady state mode at lets say .86 Lambda and then run the engine at a slow acceleration rate lets say like a 5th gear pull down the freeway the mixture will be .87 / 88, now do it at a very high rate like 1st gear and the mixture will be .91/92. The system will always be behind depending on acceleration rates. On the other side if you decelerate the engine, like going up a super big hill the mixture will go rich .84/83. Guess what the spark does the same thing.

The PID controls on boost, cam shaft control and boost and poor to say the least. The Motec hac no extra tables for cam control vs oil temperature/ pressure so it simple does not control camshaft position the same from cold to hot and don’t get me started on the Drive by wire control.

The factory system simply smashes the after market systems for 6 in every area. I have also noticed a power increase at the same boost at the same engine speed with back to back testing. As you are proberly aware Brian's car once had a MoTeC and is now back to the factory system with Edit, it now starts perfectly hot and cold and is beautiful to drive, the same cant be said when the MoTeC was fitted and that was after 6 months of tuning, Idling was always a Hugh problem with hunting and stalling and in fact all three cars that were fitted with MoTeC ‘s have all now been removed. I have seen a Ba fitted with EMS and it too showed all the signs of the above.

These after market systems may be fine in fairly simple engines but as engine become more complex they simply struggle to cope well and deliver user friendliness when it comes to street manners. The after market simple have a different set of parameters to meet. They need a system that will run all styles of engine with different sensors. The Factory system is designed to run its one engine perfectly, given this and the fact its need to comply to emissions testing, the sheer magnitude of research and moneys that can be poured into such a system is staggering and once guys like us have the software available to calibrate it for the mechanical changes we make to the engine it is a perfect answer to having your cake and eating it too.

It has trick features that can detect engine misfire by measuring the time it takes between cylinder fire events, self learning and mixture adjustment and of course Knock control.. Now I now that SCT is not a big fan of knock control and this is for a number of reasons. One being if they lead everyone to believe the knock control would save the engine beyond question, that would be very irresponsible and you would have destroyed engines all over the place. Two: the Knock control and all the difference aspects of its calibration along with the mechanical noise of each engine make it a very difficult area to control correctly. So in some regards it makes more sense for then to say leave it alone and don’t rely on it, but believe me it works well enough to make it worth having once correctly understood.

Anyway that’s me 100 bobs worth.

[XRDRIFT]

OK, for the ones out there who dont much about computers controlling cars...like me...Im old school give me twin 45 DCOE webers anyday..anyway, so getting an edit would suffice to improve the tuneability and performance from the ECU and car in general? If that's the case, where in Sydney can I get mine edited and whats the cost. And are there different levels of edits?

[Fat-Tony]

OK, for the ones out there who dont much about computers controlling cars...like me...Im old school give me twin 45 DCOE webers anyday..anyway, so getting an edit would suffice to improve the tuneability and performance from the ECU and car in general? If that's the case, where in Sydney can I get mine edited and whats the cost. And are there different levels of edits?

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the edit in this case is a device brought in by capa, which allows tuners the ability to retune and play with settings on the stock ecu for the falcon xr6turbo and a whole host of other vehicles released by ford. some inc the xr8, gt, typhoon, and non turbo 6cyls BA-onwards and a few other vehicles

[Headsex]

Anyway that’s me 100 bobs worth.

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Thanks Dave..

You basically ttook my thoughts and made it better than I would have..

I am a firm believe that if you can modify the existing ECU, Stick with it. Car makers spend 100fold what aftermarket ecu's spend in development. That in itself should be a indication of the level of development.

Anyways, I hope that post of your Dave has opened some peoples eyes

Danny.

[Headsex]

lawsy the a3ya has

8x10=80 fuel loadpoints

9x11=99 ign loadpoints

ems stinger 32x96=3072 loadpoints fuel and ign.

as to data sheets get on the ems get on their site and download the software and play with it!!!!

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It needs that many points becasuse its interpolation is crap and its a DUMB system, meaning it has no thermodynamic model of the actual cylinder mass within the chamber - unlike the factory system.

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First of all, Dynowog,

I dont even know why you mentioned the fuel load points. In the ford system its totally irrelavent, its the Commanded Air Fuel. not the "milliseconds of injection".

The ford system calculates the required injection pulse. unlike most if not all aftermarket systems which you have to specify the fuel injection Millisecond period based on Load (map or tps) Vs Spark.

This is why the ford system requires the "thermodynamic model of actual cylinder mass" as rob mentioned.

I would hate tuning a ECU with that many load points, it would be a upmost waste of time tuning every single point. if the aftermarket ecu had decent interpolation and accuracy, there would be no need for such a big table. That goes for Any aftermarket ecu.

Danny.

[jetute]

lawsy the a3ya has

8x10=80 fuel loadpoints

9x11=99 ign loadpoints

ems stinger 32x96=3072 loadpoints fuel and ign.

as to data sheets get on the ems get on their site and download the software and play with it!!!!

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It needs that many points becasuse its interpolation is crap and its a DUMB system, meaning it has no thermodynamic model of the actual cylinder mass within the chamber - unlike the factory system.

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First of all, Dynowog,

I dont even know why you mentioned the fuel load points. In the ford system its totally irrelavent, its the Commanded Air Fuel. not the "milliseconds of injection".

The ford system calculates the required injection pulse. unlike most if not all aftermarket systems which you have to specify the fuel injection Millisecond period based on Load (map or tps) Vs Spark.

This is why the ford system requires the "thermodynamic model of actual cylinder mass" as rob mentioned.

I would hate tuning a ECU with that many load points, it would be a upmost waste of time tuning every single point. if the aftermarket ecu had decent interpolation and accuracy, there would be no need for such a big table. That goes for Any aftermarket ecu.

Danny.

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and 2nd of all??

[Headsex]

and 2nd of all??

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Lol.. Second of all was its after 5:30 and I'm going home

Danny