Ve - The New Commode

[replicant]

Part 1 - Suspensions...

Sourced from ZF (who make the steering links as well as the gearbox for the BF 6 speed autos).

Front Suspension is an evolution of the MacStrut setup with an additional lower arm

Rear suspension is a double wishbone with four links with a rear strut brace (wonder what happens in the wagons?)

Replicant's guide...

Anyone who climbs underneath the VE Front End is going to unsurprisingly going to see something that resembles some of the more recent BMWs... actually, it's an awful lot like the Territory front end with a virtual pivot link and a steering rack in front of axleline... that's very familiar fare and I'd expect something similar on the Orion as an extension from the Territory development. This will replace the very short arm/long arm in the Falcon that's been there forever.

Lateral compliance oversteer reduction and zero scrub are a benefit and so it should be after Expensive Daewoo had the chance to clean sheet something and not take a Opel hand me down.

Expensive Daewoo needed this as the existing MacPherson strut arrangement owed its parentage to the Opel Rekord which was a 1.7 litre 4 cylinder car - which is why the Late model camira front suspension was akin to a Cortina... Incidentally, the new suspension has a heap more adjustability in terms of camber, toe and castor so fiddle to your heart's content... oddly it means the Expensive Daewoo V8 Supercars have even less to do with the roadgoing siblings as they run a double A Arm arrangement...

Also it means for those who can read between the lines that it's going to be able to take AWD whenever Expensive Daewoo decides it needs to add this - although with Captiva, Adventra is a dead duck... unless of course, Expensive Daewoo brings out a mid sized Torana derivative off the platform in the wake of the fuel crisis... you never know if Expensive Daewoo will hedge it's bets and keep TT36 on the backburner in case fuel continues to rise and E-Sized car sales keep going south...

The rear end finally despatches the old semi-trailing arm that was derived from Opel days which had all sorts of dramas with camber changes under load and tyre wear issues. Expensive Daewoo calls the arrangement as 4.5 links as it claims the upper wishbone acts as an additional link... it's fairly contemporary but is part of the package that adds extra weight to the VE Platform.

Interestingly, the new diff is alloy cased with multiplate clutches, instead of cones, and made by ZF. At least this is somewhere Expensive Daewoo could save some weight in the VE but this is sprung weight... there's a significant amount of additional unsprung weight with all these new bits although it will be significant stiffer and less likely to axle tramp with better lateral control than those wobbly semi-trailing arms which had no lateral links for a long time...

Edited 01/08/06 12:10 AM by replicant

[replicant]

Part 2 - Engines, Powertrain...

Well, I touched on the rear differential, alloy cased and sourced from ZF so it's only fair that we look at the rest of the powertrain.

There are 3 auto boxes - all GM powertrain units. The new six-speed auto for the V8s is the 6LE80 which is a six speed unit that is apparently good for 800Nm of torque. It's sourced from the US and apparently the cause of some concern for GMH as with relatively few choices for final drives, the gearing did not suit the fuel economy tests as much as they would have liked. The incremental improvements in economy were nothing like the variances between the Ion 4 speed and the ZF 6 speed in the Ford so don't see them crowing a lot about this aspect - although the differences between the relatively low revving Ford V8 and the pushrod alloy GMH motor could make a difference as well...

On the other hand, the six speed does bring promise of improvements in refinement that the old 4 speeder didn't bring... and expect to see a lot more Autos being sold esp in V8s mirroring activity when the ZF box arrived in the XR6T and XR8.

The four speeder (for the Omega nee Exec) is a carryover from, I dunno, VN days - it's apparently upgraded so it doesn't have to deal with V8 torque anymore but don't expect it to be much better. The five speeder which saw service in the SV6 in VZ guise begins to appear across more of the V6 range....

I'm not going to go very deep into the manuals because they again are essentially carryovers from VZ.

In terms of engines, Expensive Daewoo continues with a development of the 'Global' V6 which appears in all sorts of hulls these days eg SAAB and the block of the new Alfa Brera. In VZ guise, the engine suffered from being plumbed into the old Ecotec exhaust and sounded little better than the originally Buick derived pushrod.

There have been small gains in power - probably some tweaks to the ECU and with the exhaust routing in the new V6 - but no supercharged or turbocharged derivatives as yet. Although, SAAB do a low blow turbo and Alfa have their own heads and manifolds...

The new 6 litre V8s are Holden's most powerful. They continue to be alloy and pushrod actuation of the valves continues... although they continue to set the standard here - with Ford continuing with the truck derived blocks with 4 valve heads in Boss guise or the 3V single cam otherwise.

From what I can gather, none of the cylinder deactivation features are present on either the global V6 or V8s at the moment to counter the spec sheet stuff of the 300C Hemi but expect to see it as a spoiler when Ford launches Orion in a couple of years time (although Ford must be having kittens right now as they would be close to or have locked in most of the key decisions on powertrain and engineering by now)

The only question is whether enthusiasts are going to be able to fork out for the gas and what the residuals do when the finance companies come to work out the leases in a few more months. Rumor has it that V8s and big 4WDs are doing dough cold at end of lease at the moment so it will be interesting to see where these get priced by the end of the year...

No sign of a diesel just yet. There are two possible avenues Expensive Daewoo could go... apparently they have a mule with a BMW diesel but that's a rank outsider as the power unit ain't cheap and there's no agreement as yet... the other is the Renault/Nissan/GM hookup... Renault have a fair bit of common-rail diesel tech in Europe and Nissan could have some spare capacity - there's a fair bit of supposition but there's an outside possibility that GMH could get another Nissan sourced engine (as per VL days) albeit a diesel... although the odds are similar to me picking the Melbourne Cup winner this far out from November...

[Dagabond]

Somebodies gotta ask.......what the HELL are you on about... :headhurt:

[RAPHOON]

Great synopsis though.

[Mondie]

Very interesting read mate, you obviously know your sh*te. Good stuff

[replicant]

It's the guide to the new VE from an interested enthusiast's point of view... but I don't have to behave like a journo and worry about annoying the advertisers posting here...

I'm not saying anything about integrity but considering the basic layout of the VE front end is pretty much the same as the Territory, it's disappointing that most journos have focussed on the press kit story that they cut up BMWs to get the design... and that I'm guessing that something like it will probably turn up in Orion (provided that they figure how to get around where the engine is placed and still have a relatively low cowl)...

Besides which I'm neither typing this stuff for dollars or do I work in the industry or a related one... but I have spent some time working on the 'dark side' in marketing so I still have a fairly cynical eye on this stuff...

What I'm really interested in, is what Ford will respond in the way of BFII and SYII to address the long gap sales-wise till Orion turns up...

[XRDRIFT]

replicant you seem to know your stuff, and I'm afraid to ask you your working background. But the VE to me sounds nothing like a Holden, BMW this Territory that and Alfa to boot. Sounds like GMH is running out of ideas in their engineering dept and sourcing ideas from other manufacturers to put this "Euro" derived peice of trash.

Expensive Daewoo can keep the 6.0 litre, especially with fuel prices it eats the gas and what a 6.0 litre HSV costs its more cost effective to buy a BF XR6 turbo or Typhoon and mod them.

As for the suspension and drivetrain I'm not much of a guru on it if they are anything compared to VN days and hyped up VZ stuff well it cant be any good.

Either way I like the Ford better between the two, Holdens to me are expensive overpriced peices of Aussie badged Euro crap. I prefer my jap cars eg: 300zx twin turbo, R32-34gtr's and Twin turbo RZ Supras well you get the drift.

But we'll soon see how the VE takes off and how it will be accepted into soceity, if it should.

[saleen]

  Dagabond said:

Somebodies gotta ask.......what the HELL are you on about... :headhurt:

←

Bit rude Darren. Now say sorry.

[replicant]

HSV E-Series 'active' suspension as discussed here (well we were on to it a few months back...)

http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/index.ph...topic=25469&hl=

More to come as I get around to tapping the keyboard with a few more snippets and work thru the rest of the technical data...

Interestingly ZF were involved in quite a lot of the suspension modules and steering... so maybe that explains some of the concepts about the front suspension and steering rack similarities with a certain german manufacturer and a locally developed AWD... not saying the GMH guys didn't work thru the designs themselves...

Also should have mentioned the new mcstrut front suspension design should be relatively cheaper to put together than a double wishbone front end (say like a Falcon) - one less arm and less links. Have to think about how the location of the steering rack in front of the axle has on the ackerman effect... ie when you turn the inside wheel angle will be different from the outside wheel... as it should have a tighter radius than the outer wheel (by something according to the front track) - think of it as toeout when the steering wheel is taken away from straight ahead...

Have to have a think about that... because locating the rack behind the axle gives better angles to allow for positive ackerman effect.

[Kimberley Scott]

  XRDRIFT said:

replicant you seem to know your stuff, and I'm afraid to ask you your working background. But the VE to me sounds nothing like a Holden, BMW this Territory that and Alfa to boot. Sounds like GMH is running out of ideas in their engineering dept and sourcing ideas from other manufacturers to put this "Euro" derived peice of trash.

Expensive Daewoo can keep the 6.0 litre, especially with fuel prices it eats the gas and what a 6.0 litre HSV costs its more cost effective to buy a BF XR6 turbo or Typhoon and mod them.

As for the suspension and drivetrain I'm not much of a guru on it if they are anything compared to VN days and hyped up VZ stuff well it cant be any good.

Either way I like the Ford better between the two, Holdens to me are expensive overpriced peices of Aussie badged Euro crap. I prefer my jap cars eg: 300zx twin turbo, R32-34gtr's and Twin turbo RZ Supras well you get the drift.

But we'll soon see how the VE takes off and how it will be accepted into soceity, if it should.

←

Mate fuel prices may still be going up, but there are still people who will buy V8's. In the Ford camp we are lucky to have a decent alternative to the V8. Having said that when pushed is a modded T or Phoon really that much better than a V8 in economy, I reckon not. These things will sell and will sell well.

I reckon the Orion project is probably the most nerve raking as it is not out for another couple of years and with fuel prices continuing to rise, Ford will have to make some big decisions. But as mentioned they probably already have made those decisions.

Bloody interesting Read mate, most of it went over my head, but still some of it I understood.

Scotty