Pinging, Pinging And More Pinging....

[Paradoxx]

I think we are missing the point here, unless there is a problem with the ECU or something blocking fuel delivery, there is no way the car should be pinging the way it is set up now. If the tuner was doing things correctly you wouldnt have pinging. Better get some data logging happening so you can pinpoint where the issue is with your tune. Something is obviously not set up right!

Even if it was dodgy fuel the knock sensor should be able to detect ping and the ECU bring back the timing accordingly.

[jordak]

Truth of the matter is that some cars respond better to the edit than others.

That aside those tuners getting the better results have been using the edit software for sometime now and have had the benefit of "learning their trade" on a significant number of T's.

I may be wrong but I believe FIST are relatively new to the edit and as such may struggle more than the more experienced edit tuners when a "problem" car is tuned.

Chances are the pinging is a result of timing being on the limit in order to get the most out of the tune. It is not uncommon for pinging to occur subsequent to what appeared to be a perfect tune on the rollers, once driven on the road.

Providing FIST remain committed to working through the issues in order to deliver the best tune that the car is capable of I would be sticking with them.

I doubt whether they are any tuners, HPF and Nizpro included that have never failed to deliver the "expected" goods on at least a couple of occasions.

[Paradoxx]

Unfortunately learning is a process of trial and error

[gogo]

  XXXR6T said:

I think we are missing the point here, unless there is a problem with the ECU or something blocking fuel delivery, there is no way the car should be pinging the way it is set up now. If the tuner was doing things correctly you wouldnt have pinging. Better get some data logging happening so you can pinpoint where the issue is with your tune. Something is obviously not set up right!

Even if it was dodgy fuel the knock sensor should be able to detect ping and the ECU bring back the timing accordingly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said! That is fundamentally the point of my original post - and that is that regardless of mods and their limitations - the car should not ping if tuned correctly for the level of modification - provided fuel level is maintained.

Xtreme F6 - for the record - I understand that Nizpro have successfully tuned auto cars with completely stock exhausts to over 300rwkw - don't ask me how they acheive what they do, but I have been very very happy with what they have done for me - and see no reason to dispute this (just spoke with Dave at Nizpro to confirm that my understanding was correct).

I am not trying to have a go at you - nor dispute that replacement of the stock cat with a better unit will free up exhaust flow. I also appreciate that he is not running a Nizpro setup, or an alternative arrangement to significantly reduce inlet losses, but the fact remains that the stock cat can be retained in a car that delivers higher power than the 240 odd rwkw that he currently has. The point I wanted to make was that the stock cat does not place an absolute limit on the power at around the 270rwkw level, like any mod - it depends on what else has been done and the particular car.

Bottom line in terms of resolving Robit28's issues, I beleive the tune should be queried first and foremost given the pinging issue. If he wants to chase more power, then by all means look at further mods, and replacing the cat may well free the car up allowing a high power tune and do so the most economically from where he is.

All good bud! Main thing is that he gets his car sorted and is happy at the end of the day.

Cheers,

Ben.

[sutty]

  gogo said:

Bottom line in terms of resolving Robit28's issues, I beleive the tune should be queried first and foremost given the pinging issue.  If he wants to chase more power, then by all means look at further mods, and replacing the cat may well free the car up allowing a high power tune and do so the most economically from where he is. 

All good bud!      Main thing is that he gets his car sorted and is happy at the end of the day.

What irks me is that people are quick to jump in and blame "the tuner" for what the end user perceives to be the problem. I don't know Rob very well yet, but I don't believe him to be an expert - nor am I - but from the little I've been told so far, there is the possibility that he still has a spring problem.

Rob, get the car back to FIST ASAP to get the problem diagnosed.

[Paradoxx]

How would the springs cause pinging? They would only cause loss of compression. Who else's fault is it?

[gogo]

  sutty said:

What irks me is that people are quick to jump in and blame "the tuner" for what the end user perceives to be the problem. I don't know Rob very well yet, but I don't believe him to be an expert - nor am I - but from the little I've been told so far, there is the possibility that he still has a spring problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Valve springs will impact top end performance in particular, but the levels of boost etc should be set accordingly. I am quite sympathetic with the tuners - It is a difficult position as there are many variables that will impact the performance of the car after it leaves the workshop which they have no control over such as fuel quality.

Having said that, barring a bad batch of fuel (or a mechanical failure), if the car is pinging, the issue is with the tune IMO.

  sutty said:

Rob, get the car back to FIST ASAP to get the problem diagnosed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would reflash to a 95 map or lower octane map, or go back and see the tuner if the pinging is as bad as reported (to minimise risk to car, and ensure all working correctly). Then eliminate the potentially dodgy fuel by driving easy or draining, and refuelling with 98 RON from a known good petrol station - if problem is still apparent then the tune needs more work!

again - good luck and hope it all gets sorted.

cheers,

Ben.

[Xtreme F6]

  gogo said:

  XXXR6T said:

I think we are missing the point here, unless there is a problem with the ECU or something blocking fuel delivery, there is no way the car should be pinging the way it is set up now. If the tuner was doing things correctly you wouldnt have pinging. Better get some data logging happening so you can pinpoint where the issue is with your tune. Something is obviously not set up right!

Even if it was dodgy fuel the knock sensor should be able to detect ping and the ECU bring back the timing accordingly.

Xtreme F6 - for the record - I understand that Nizpro have successfully tuned auto cars with completely stock exhausts to over 300rwkw - don't ask me how they acheive what they do, but I have been very very happy with what they have done for me - and see no reason to dispute this (just spoke with Dave at Nizpro to confirm that my understanding was correct).

I wasnt doubting what Nizpro achieve, Considering im a Nizpro dealer that would be pretty stupid, I said I (ME) (Myself) have never been able to achieve a higher result then 290 rwkw's with the complete stock cat ect, I have had autos run 330 rwkw with a stock exhaust and just a cat change.

This was never a discussion about nizpro kits nor what figures they get, This poor guy has a car that's pinging and down a little on power, I stand by what I said, STOCK cats are a big problem in flow and retaining heat = detonation, his cat could even be a bit dead who knows. He needs to get the pung removed with a new power figure cos chances are it will be lower again after a retune to fix the detonation.

If he replaces the cat it will be good for atleast 15 to 20 rwkw.. Minimum.

[sutty]

  XXXR6T said:

How would the springs cause pinging? They would only cause loss of compression. Who else's fault is it?

Springs would not cause pinging. What I'm saying is that maybe it's pinging - maybe it's not. I don't know. Have you heard the car?

Still, if it is pinging, the problem could quite easily be fuel related - yes?

At the end of the day, it's all conjecture until someone who IS an expert actually looks at the car instead of making assumptions based on someone else's perception.

[Paradoxx]

Yeah I guess mis-diagnosis is possible... but pinging is quite distinctive and a completely different sound to valves staying open.

For the record, if you are not sure what pinging sounds like, imagine pouring a bag of marbles out onto a concrete surface. Valve springs open sounds like low frequency rumble through the exhaust and degraded performance.

Edited 21/03/06 03:18 AM by XXXR6T