Tuner Liability

[F6 UTE]

With the recent spate of engines mysteriously going 'pop', where does it leave us??

I'm curious.

Where do the tuners stand in this whole debarcle of blowing engines etc, bad tunes and the like.

I have never signed a disclaimer, so does that mean if my engine goes bang while running someones tune, they become responsible for the damage??

I work in construction, and if ever there is a maintenance issue or faulty workmanship, I'm liable, even 6 months down the track.. I have insurance to cover such fcukups just incase. Regardless, there are Aus standards to be adhered to, and quality of finish to be achieved.

We've all had a tune 'tightened up' or tweaked, it's natural..

But for average joe, where does he stand??

We are not experts, we don't tune the cars ourselves. We take it to an expert, trained in the field. Some dude on a powertrip to rip the absolute most out of an engine. But at whose expense???

If I pay a guy cash, get no reciept, I'm an idiot, but down the track, what happens?

Ford warrant there work, not other peoples. They shouldn't have to foot the bill for some tuner who dials in too much boost, or fcuks up there map, or makes a genuine mistake..

If I ask for a result, and it's not achievable, do I waive accountability? Do I get a result which exceeds my expectations and vice versa??

Is it time tuners are found accountable for there actions? or are they already??

Just because they don't give a warranty on there workmanship as it's a 'performance based business' does it mean they wipe there hands of us consumers??

I believe with the amount of work being pushed the way of tuners, something has to happen.

I see Nizpro warrant a certain level of modification with the 'packages'. Should other tuners follow suit??

Even a 'paid' extended warranty??

What do ppl think?? Are we asking too much of these 'trained' professionals??

[Romulus]

Interesting thread Ben. I too work in the construction trade, and am insured to the hilt.

With regard to modifying your vehicle beyond the manufacturers' specification, do you expect your factory warranty for your powertrain to remain intact? Whether you modify it, or you pay someone to do it, once you modify it beyond the manufacturers' specs it's at your own peril. Further to that, a tuner has no control over how you drive the car, what fuel you put in it etc.

At least, that's my take on it.

[XR6T-riffic]

dont think they would have much choice

you pay a certain amount of dollars for there service &/or parts and if they fail in there performance in doing what you paid them to do they are liable for any loss or damage in their negligence.

the reality would be though you affording and indeed getting them to court to compensate you

[F6 UTE]

Interesting thread Ben. I too work in the construction trade, and am insured to the hilt.

With regard to modifying your vehicle beyond the manufacturers' specification, do you expect your factory warranty for your powertrain to remain intact? Whether you modify it, or you pay someone to do it, once you modify it beyond the manufacturers' specs it's at your own peril. Further to that, a tuner has no control over how you drive the car, what fuel you put in it etc.

At least, that's my take on it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed. I see your point.

My take on it is this:

We take our cars to a 'shop' to get a tune done, or any modification we choose to shell out the coin for.

The tuner has a better understanding of what the capabilities of the modification and or parts can endure.

I know some tuners would/have refuse/d some point of modification as they believe it would be detrimental to the engine and or it's lifespan. This is good.

As I mentioned, a waiver...

But an edit only, surely the tolerances built into the engine would be enough to warrant some peace of mind?

I'm not referring to even my level of modification, as I believe it is not a long term prospect in regards to engine longevity..

I'm not copmpletely unreasonable.. But samller mods, what do we think??

As I mentioned, Nizpro and Herrod warrant there work, it's a step in the right direction.

[geea]

I believe this is where the quality of the tuner and the tuner/customer relationship is very important.

When modding a car well beyond it's original specs (20%+) the tuner needs to explain to the cusomer what they are doing and possible failures that could happen.

Customers need to be aware of any special fuel requiremnets and other special needs of modded cars. There are also limitations of stock parts. I know that HPF don't like going past 300rwkw's with stock internals. If you want more than this amount Rob will tell you of the dangers. If you still want to proceed it would have to be at your own peril. Early on it was similar with the injectors, HPF wouldn't go past 235-240 with stock injectors.

I think that as long as both parties have a good relationship and talk to each other about what they want and what can and can't be done there shouldn't be too many problems. I know that if I blow my engine up after 70000kms with alot done over 300rwkw's that I won't be blaming the tuner. It's the engine failing to cope with 50%+ more power over an extended period. I wont be happy but the blame will be with me.

Geea.

[Dannopower]

Its certainly an interesting point.

In respect of the tuners, as in most cases these days, the owner of the car may well have a variety of work done at various places before the tuner gets to even to see the car.

Custom tuning a customers car, without knowing the exact state of the products or the workmanship on the car would be like sometimes a cross between russian roulette and trying to make a purse out of a cops ear.

In my experience, if there is any problem that comes from a tune, the Tuner would always do the absolute best to rectify anything WITHIN THEIR POWER to get the customer happy and the customers car running at its best. Even weeks or months after the initial money has changed hands for the tuning work.

If someone has an issue or is worried about what might become of their car, then leave it alone.

Tuners pride themselves on their abilities and market themselves on their customer relations, professionalism as well as tuning results.

[F6 UTE]

I agree geea.

I suppose I'm heading down the track of people who have minor mods, and are trying to blame Ford, or are getting Ford to foot the bill as far as repairs or 'warranty' work is concerned.

If a tuner was able to have the confidence in his own ability to be sure there will be no problems, then why not commit. We commit our back pockets and hard earned to the tuner, why not cut fomoco some slack??

I know of a couple of ppl who has rather extensive mods and still revert there ride to stock before service?? Is this fair or at least even commooin decency??

I had it out with my service manager once, he said I couldn't edit my car. I said like *beep* I can't. It is, and get knotted with your warranty if you choose..

I now get my service done outside Ford, and I won't be a 'warranty leech' like many others choose to be.

We as a modifier have to step up, but at the end of the day, we are paying for a product.

[mls]

I am no longer in the auto industry but managed workshops for the better part of 10 years

.

Here's an analagy for you:

In construction the buildings are designed to take certain loadings and if a building is originally designed with a 2.5 kN load limit on each floor when the occupier of said building dumps 10kN of machinery on the 3rd floor all warranties and liabilities on the designer / builder will be found to be null and void

Some reasons why most would never put a warranty on performance work:

- You don't know how the driver / owner was treating the vehicle (most will say that they were only driving calmly when it "let go")

- You don't know if the driver / owner didn't back off at the first sign of a problem

- Unless it was a full in house build you don't know how well the internals of the engine are put together.

In general, if you are wanting high performance out of many lumps of metal and alloy flying around with astronomical pressures being exerted on them you will understand that there are many reasons why warranties aren't generally offered in this field of work.

[F6 UTE]

Its certainly an interesting point.

In respect of the tuners, as in most cases these days, the owner of the car may well have a variety of work done at various places before the tuner gets to even to see the car.

Custom tuning a customers car, without knowing the exact state of the products or the workmanship on the car would be like sometimes a cross between russian roulette and trying to make a purse out of a cops ear.

In my experience, if there is any problem that comes from a tune, the Tuner would always do the absolute best to rectify anything WITHIN THEIR POWER to get the customer happy and the customers car running at its best. Even weeks or months after the initial money has changed hands for the tuning work.

If someone has an issue or is worried about what might become of their car, then leave it alone.

Tuners pride themselves on their abilities and market themselves on their customer relations, professionalism as well as tuning results.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed.

Obviously there will be no such thing as blanket responsibilty. If a tuner provides a 'package' or a 'staged' product, this is differrent..

The fact we have 3 slots to choose from is also difficult, unless one tuner has all 3 slot accounted for. It would be easy for an end user to load a tune and point the finger at a certain tuner. This is not an easy subject, and one I don't see an easy answer for.

[G6ET8U]

This is not an easy subject, and one I don't see an easy answer for.

But an extremely interesting subject none the less...

I read it with interest...

Jack