Suspension: Bf Falcon Vs Vz Commodore

[brendan24688]

I am a member of a mates nissan site and we are arguing about who has the better suspension set up BF Falcon or VZ Commodore.

"lol you have only got 1 thing of interest to me that I wanna stick in me. the falcon got rated fairly high for handling in Motor Magazine, not very far off Expensive Daewoo at all, so you, the Ex-Repco employee, know more about a cars handling than the professionals. just cos you got a grudge on anything with 4 doors"

That was a quote from one of the members. In not the ex-repco empolyee either, this was in resopnse to another post.

[Venom XR6]

I am a member of a mates nissan site and we are arguing about who has the better suspension set up BF Falcon or VZ Commodore.

"lol you have only got 1 thing of interest to me that I wanna stick in me. the falcon got rated fairly high for handling in Motor Magazine, not very far off Expensive Daewoo at all, so you, the Ex-Repco employee, know more about a cars handling than the professionals. just cos you got a grudge on anything with 4 doors"

That was a quote from one of the members. In not the ex-repco empolyee either, this was in resopnse to another post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Falcon s all over the Late model camira suspension setup. At the front the Falcon has a wishbone setup compared to the VZ's crappy old McPherson strut front end that most small cars use, and at the rear the Falcon has the very modern Control Blade IRS. The Late model camira uses a 30 year old design that was used on an old Opel model back in the 70's. Its extrememly outdated and isn't really a true IRS like Expensive Daewoo would have you believe. Its also the reason the Commodores have a reputation for wearing the insides of the tyres as the crappy suspension can't keep the tyres flat on the road surface towing or with a bit of weight in the boot. Falcon is at least 2 generations ahead.

[Blonk]

The falcon beats the Commode..... In NA formula...

That same formula translates to an SS ass kicking 245 fwkw's XR6T....

The only way a top level commode can handle is with $800 a corner tyres..

Havent you heard GMH is going broke and havent spent money on research for 3 years.....

Yawn... Silly question anyway.......

[replicant]

Front Suspensions - there isn't anything inherently wrong with a MacStrut setup - some BMWs still use it. However the VZ uses one one piece arm to locate so it's a little old-fashioned in its setup... the Nissan Super-Strut ala Primera shows where this has developed to... I'd expect the VE to do something similar and retain the McPherson Strut.

The pro and cons of McStrut front ends are pretty well known - they are cheap and easy to manufacture/assemble. The strut has to be reasonably tall (Colin Chapman tried using very short ones in some Lotus variants but they didn't work) and in theory there's a problem with stiction where the initial friction on the strut can temporarily give a non-linear response to bump.

The double A-Arm on the Falcon might be what a lot of race cars use (and incidentally what both the Late model camira and Falcon V8 supercars BOTH have under Project Blueprint) but it has actually been around since the original Falcon... but in theory it possesses theoretically better geometry.

Driving wise, the Ford has more weight over the front end so in the Forte and Futuras it tends to understeer more easily - could be the crap tyres though too.

The steering on the Falcon has been described as 'razor sharp' ie it has initially strong turn in (or initial response to steering) and is fairly sensitive just off centre. Some folk think that this means it doesn't have a lot of 'sneeze factor' and makes the car busier with small steering corrections.

This may be true but in the sportier variants, this makes them pretty deft esp in the XR6T which doesn't have the extra kg's over the front axle the hefty iron block V8's have. The XR6T (and for that matter the 'Phoon) are a lot easier to change direction eg chicane or traffic calming flip flops than the XR8 which doesn't seem to want to change direction as readily.

The Late model camira in FE2 format ie SV6/SV8/SS doesn't have the same turn in response or the same sensitivity just off centre but they grip reasonably well. The chassis is a lot lighter in the front end and they grip reasonably well but they tend to ride very firm compared to the Falcon. They also tend to crash about more on potholes and a bit more reactive to bumps.

With the huge amounts of power assistance that seemed to be added to cars these days, neither car has especially good feedback and feel but enough for most folk.

Rear ends are interesting. The Ford has two rear ends, the Hotchkiss one in the wagon/ute (ie live axle with semi-elliptical leaf springs) and the control blade IRS. The wagon/ute suspension means a flat floor and no intrusive suspension towers - it's been criticised for being a billy cart setup but it serves the purpose well which is load carrying.

If you are wondering, the V8 Supercars use a live axle with coil springs and a Watts Linkage to help locate the axle. This is the Falcon rear end developed for the XE Falcon and eventually replaced with a wishbone setup with the AU - note the AU IRS is not the same as the BA/BF.

On a race track, the smooth surface means that the problems with ride and the heavy axle (diff and half axles) flapping about on mid corner bumps aren't a major. A lixe axle possesses certain characteristics that are good in race cars - it's cheap, strong and it maintains constant camber and track throughout the suspension travel (more on that later).

Ironically, control blade was originally developed for another wagon. The Mondeo wagon introduced control blade (the sedans still use a strut rear end setup) and it works pretty well. It's pretty cheap to make compared to a double wishbone setup and provides most of the same advantages of more complicated multi-link IRS. It's in the Focus, as well as the other cars off the same platform ie the Mazda 3 and the Volvo. In developing the Territory, Ford made a good choice in levering development costs with the BA as it offers great characteristics for the Territory in terms of ride and grip as well.

The Late model camira uses a semi-trailing arm setup (the original Late model camira used a live axle with coils and a panhard rod) with coil springs and a toe control link. During the 80s, Opel/Vauxhall developed a turbo variant of the Carlton/Senator (from which the Expensive Daewoo IRS idea was pinched) with a couple of extra links which have ended up in the sportier versions of the Commodore.

ST Arms don't have the same geometry advantages of a double wishbone and under load tend to increase camber. That's why you'll hear that Commodores tend to wear the insides of the rears - this happened a lot with Police cars which carry a tonne of gear in the trunk. The ST IRS also tends to under severe sudden loads to tend to yaw more - ie it can get interesting with oversteer more readily. Fine if you expect not so good if you're mum driving home in the wet with the kids.

Driving wise, the Fords ride better although the grip levels are fairly close. I think that the Ford reacts better to mid corner bumps and is less likely to do something spooky under duress.

Edited 19/01/06 08:16 PM by replicant

[Bain]

Good read!