Xr6turbo Fluttering

[Benny]

The way understand it is, like what's been said before, when the throttle butterfly closes(when changing in a manual) the compressor wheel continues to spin and produces pressure. When this happens the air has nowhere to go and causes the BOV to open and close fairly rapidly venting it back into the intake. This flutter sound is then heard back through the intake/air filter. Cars with a pod type filter will have a much more apparent sound.

I also think it is possible to have a wastegate type flutter when the ecu signals the wastegate to open and close. I'm reasonably sure the wastegate is a simple open/close setup and doesn't have a variable/anologue operation therefore if you are heating up the tyres at the start of a run then the gate will need to open and close rapidly as your boost pressure bounces above and below the maximum boost setting.

I think the BOV flutter is the one heard mostly on the T.

[Paradoxx]

Block your Bov off if you want Flutter, simplest way of doing it really. Mines auto and I get flutter, but only when I want it not every five seconds. Ive heard many stories about the reason behind the noise, but it seems the bigger the cooler, the louder the noise, also the freer the intake the louder it is too, but that's due to a freed up intake being less restrictive for the out going flutter.

Believe what you will, but theres few better sounds than a turbo fluttering away on the crisp cold night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The bigger the cooler means more volume of air and therefore a longer and generally louder noise that comes out.

The BOV doesn't make that flutter sound, it's the wastegate.

If you want that Flutter sound to be loud then remove the BOV and block the pipes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are many theories, but I'm afraid it isn't the wastegate at all. The sound that is made is quite simply the BOV releasing pressure quickly, closing under pressure of the spring, pressure building up quickly due to the turbine, BOV opening again releasing more air, closing under pressure of the spring again, etc etc this all happening within the space of a couple of seconds.

There is a noise made with no BOV which is due to what is called compressor surge, but it is unrelated to the noise that is made by a stock T with stock BOV.

You would be very lucky (or unlucky) to hear a noise made by the wastegate at the back of the turbo. If this makes a noise, there is something very bad about to happen.

[blueboost]

if you want do a test, disconnect you bov and bung the holes, then take for a drive. you will find that the noise is still there, and infact will be louder.because the built up air will have to be pushed back through the impeller

David

[Guest xrtwpn]

I have heard that as horsepower gets higher, which means more of this air preasure builds up, it can spin the impeller off the turbo,

this would not happen to a standed boost car,at 4-6psi, but I was told with bigger power it could do damage,

also remember the more youhere this the more lag you will get, because the air trying to return past the impeller is stopping its momentem.have a talk to your tunners, and they will explain it to you.

                                                                    David

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that's crap man look at my car it has never broken look at all the fast Vl turbos around they dont break and none of them run BOV maybe if you were running a little sh*t T28 or something they would break but the gt40 is a pretty tuff turbo

[Paradoxx]

Like I said, the noises are unrelated... one is compressor surge and the other is the BOV. You usually have one or the other.

[philldub]

Heres a nice short explaination. from Nizpro

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject: Blow Off Valves.. What are they really For ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blow off valves what do they really do?

This is fairly simply if you have a good under standing of what goes on with the engine and how most engine management systems work. It still amazes me how many professionals don’t quite understand, and wont to add them to everything they get their hands on. The bigger and shiner they are the better.

Now there is no hard or fast rule that says you must or must not have one. It greatly depends on your application. There are also many reasons how and what purpose you use them for, so I’ll start with why they were invented in the first place and give some examples of why they were fitted to some vehicles and not others. These examples and the reasons also back up the truth of what they were designed to do.

Firstly they were never designed to keep turbo charger from blowing up on trailing throttle. Example 1: Lets look at the first of the modern mass-produced turbo charged cars that we will all be familiar with, you guess it the VL Late model camira turbo. They were also known for having a very reliable turbocharger and yet not a BOV in sight, even with increased boost that 99% of them had the turbo charger gave great life often in the 200,000 k mark.

So why weren't’t they fitted with a BOV? This is simply, it was back in 1986-88 and the emission laws were relatively simple. Hey, I hear you say whats the EPA got to do with it? Well actually every thing. Lets have a look at what happens when the car is driving down the road changing gears accelerating and slowing. Lets also look at how the ECU is determining how much fuel is required with all this going on. The ECU is getting two main signals, one RPM from the crank angle sensor and the other, airflow ,from the air flow meter {AFM}. The afm measure the air entering the engine, it dose this by a heated wirer element like your average light bulb, inside a know diameter hole call it 55 mm. Now the ecu heats this wirer up to lets say 500 deg c with a voltage, normally 0 to 5 volts. The air entering the engine goes pasted the wirer and cools it down, so the ecu puts more voltage into it to restore the 500 deg c. It can now determine how much air is entering the engine by how many volts are required.

So now lets look at just one example of what happen when you decelerate. Your driving down the road accelerating with 5 psi of positive pressure in 3rd gear with an open throttle and are about to change into 4th , as you shut the throttle to push the clutch in and shift gears the incoming air now has no where to go it banks up against the throttle and the pressure risers, at the same time there is no air going into the engine any more so there is very little exiting the exhaust to drive the turbine wheel of the turbo charger. The turbocharger starts to slow, the air that is banked up at the throttle is pressurized and only has one way to go, back out the front of the turbo. Stop Again you say , this is what destroys the turbo. Wait I’ll get to that. Once the air goes past the turbo it then travels up the pipe to the air cleaner on its way passing the afm and at that time the afm measure the air {AGAIN} remember it’s already measured this air on the way in and the afm is not smart enough to know which way the air is traveling so it then tells the ecu to add fuel to the air that’s going in the wrong direction. A-HA VERY MIXTURE ON GEAR CHANGE. EPA says get stuffed go away.

So as emission regulation tightened up car manufactures came up with a devise called the recirculation valve AKA the blow off valve. As these valves are placed between throttle and the AFM with the turbo in the middle They recirculate the pressurized air that we just spoke about on the gear change so the afm dose not see it. No more black smoke.

Now as the EPA laws got tighter engines became smaller [GTR, EVO etc] but more powerful, intercooler became std and turbocharger compressor wheels got bigger this problem became worse as there was more air being banked up, which meant more air traveled the wrong way and was measured. So recirculation valve were fitted to all of them. And that the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and it sorta makes sense don’t ya think.

Then came the aftermarket they made really big shinny ones, didn't’t quite understand what they were for, thought it was to save the turbo from spinning backwards, they normally got you to plumb them up so all the air just blew out to atmosphere again this was measured air so the ecu added fuel although the engine never saw any of it, and it then ran really rich on gear changes but they did make a dunny flush noise that seems to have attracted a cult following. Funny thing is that Indy cars and world rally cars don’t have them. May the EPA isn't on to them yet. They also don’t blow up turbo’s very often. There goes that theory.

So you asked about the BA XR6T. Guess what it hasn't’t got an AFM. It dose its calculation via the manifold pressure sensor [map] and its mounted after the throttle so it never sees the pressure rise on gear changes. So why do they have a BOV STD? Makes you wonder, may be the after market guys are not the only ones that haven’t quite got a handle on it. The other reason would be they properly didn't’t like the dunny flush sound. That my guess.

_________________

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now we come to compressor surge.

This really isn't the noise you here on decell with no BOV in fact that noise is[THE GOBBLE GOBBLE] the compressed air going passed the compressor wheel of the Turbocharger in the wrong,direction. Dose it hurt the turbo. Not in my experience.Compressor surge is where the turbo is making to much boost pressure for the amount of volume its supplying. In other words the turbo is to big for the engine at the surge point.What can happen at this point is that the turbo tries to to compress the air to a higher level than the compressor can make so it slips or surges. Think of it like when your Tyre's break traction on a wet road the engine speed increases this is effectively what happens to the turbo and at this point the turbo over speeds and can often fail. BOV have absolutely no effect at this point as they are close when all this is happening. So what about throttle res ponce on gear changes. Again the only thing that drives the turbo is the exhaust gas and once the throttle is close for a manual gear change the turbo is slowing very quickly. If the gear change is fast the BOV hasn't got time to open as the inlet manifold needs to go into a state of vacuum to operate the BOV and this is unlikely on a snappy change. Plus on a snappy change as the throttle is closed the boost as we have previously discussed actually increases momentarily and this is then immediately ready to enter back into the engine the moment the throttle is re opened.

So if the gear change is slow and the manifold goes into vacuum and the BOV opens the boost pressure is then vented to atmosphere or if your lucky back to just in front of the turbo, so if your cars fitted with an AFM it doesn't run ridiculously rich for a split second, you have now dumped all the boost pressure in the intercooler and plumbing, you stand on the throttle at this point your car is back in a N/A state so you can now wait for the boost to build up and away you go again. Doesn't sound all that fast when it explained like that. Which is why WRC rally cars don't have them and went to boost enhancement instead.

OK now that you understand what compressor surge is I can now go back to my first comments about the gobble gobble noise not being surge. Well actually it is, But the reason it doesn't damage the turbo is that in that circumstance the throttle is closed so there is no exhaust gas to drive the turbine so it cant over speed. I'll take you back to the car doing a skid. Think of the car up on a trolley jack in gear doing 100 kph steady state throttle. Now lower the jack, yes the car will skid the Tyre's as it hits the floor but with very little accelerate it wont cause the engine to over rev.I hope I've explained it in a way that makes sense

_________________

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So why do you have one?

As in the first post states emissions is the main reason and a must if the ECU is controlled by AFM.Secondly noise as far as a car manufacturer is concerned to get rid of the noise not make it. A well designed factory plumb back valve is almost silent.Thirdly there is some thought that a small increase in fuel economy is gained, as the BOV is opened while in cruise driving as the manifold vacuum is holding it opened the turbo doesn't have to push itself against the small amount of positive pressure it could be making, thus allow the turbine wheel to spin more freely and this then lowers back pressure.

_________________

Proprietor

Nizpro Turbocharging

Bayswater Victoria.

(03) - 9761 1522

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[Blonk]

Seems like everyone has their own thoery, lol. I won't give mine.

I'm with you on this on Rob,

Could turn into another jet plane on a conveyor thread

[Dagabond]

Seems like everyone has their own thoery, lol. I won't give mine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well there's a first.

[T007]

Heres a nice short explaination. from Nizpro

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject: Blow Off Valves.. What are they really For ?   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blow off valves what do they really do?

This is fairly simply if you have a good under standing of what goes on with the engine and how most engine management systems work. It still amazes me how many professionals don’t quite understand, and wont to add them to everything they get their hands on. The bigger and shiner they are the better.

Now there is no hard or fast rule that says you must or must not have one. It greatly depends on your application. There are also many reasons how and what purpose you use them for, so I’ll start with why they were invented in the first place and give some examples of why they were fitted to some vehicles and not others. These examples and the reasons also back up the truth of what they were designed to do.

Firstly they were never designed to keep turbo charger from blowing up on trailing throttle. Example 1: Lets look at the first of the modern mass-produced turbo charged cars that we will all be familiar with, you guess it the VL Late model camira turbo. They were also known for having a very reliable turbocharger and yet not a BOV in sight, even with increased boost that 99% of them had the turbo charger gave great life often in the 200,000 k mark.

So why weren't’t they fitted with a BOV? This is simply, it was back in 1986-88 and the emission laws were relatively simple. Hey, I hear you say whats the EPA got to do with it? Well actually every thing. Lets have a look at what happens when the car is driving down the road changing gears accelerating and slowing. Lets also look at how the ECU is determining how much fuel is required with all this going on. The ECU is getting two main signals, one RPM from the crank angle sensor and the other, airflow ,from the air flow meter {AFM}. The afm measure the air entering the engine, it dose this by a heated wirer element like your average light bulb, inside a know diameter hole call it 55 mm. Now the ecu heats this wirer up to lets say 500 deg c with a voltage, normally 0 to 5 volts. The air entering the engine goes pasted the wirer and cools it down, so the ecu puts more voltage into it to restore the 500 deg c. It can now determine how much air is entering the engine by how many volts are required.

So now lets look at just one example of what happen when you decelerate. Your driving down the road accelerating with 5 psi of positive pressure in 3rd gear with an open throttle and are about to change into 4th , as you shut the throttle to push the clutch in and shift gears the incoming air now has no where to go it banks up against the throttle and the pressure risers, at the same time there is no air going into the engine any more so there is very little exiting the exhaust to drive the turbine wheel of the turbo charger. The turbocharger starts to slow, the air that is banked up at the throttle is pressurized and only has one way to go, back out the front of the turbo. Stop Again you say , this is what destroys the turbo. Wait I’ll get to that. Once the air goes past the turbo it then travels up the pipe to the air cleaner on its way passing the afm and at that time the afm measure the air {AGAIN} remember it’s already measured this air on the way in and the afm is not smart enough to know which way the air is traveling so it then tells the ecu to add fuel to the air that’s going in the wrong direction. A-HA VERY MIXTURE ON GEAR CHANGE. EPA says get stuffed go away.

So as emission regulation tightened up car manufactures came up with a devise called the recirculation valve AKA the blow off valve. As these valves are placed between throttle and the AFM with the turbo in the middle They recirculate the pressurized air that we just spoke about on the gear change so the afm dose not see it. No more black smoke.

Now as the EPA laws got tighter engines became smaller [GTR, EVO etc] but more powerful, intercooler became std and turbocharger compressor wheels got bigger this problem became worse as there was more air being banked up, which meant more air traveled the wrong way and was measured. So recirculation valve were fitted to all of them. And that the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and it sorta makes sense don’t ya think.

Then came the aftermarket they made really big shinny ones, didn't’t quite understand what they were for, thought it was to save the turbo from spinning backwards, they normally got you to plumb them up so all the air just blew out to atmosphere again this was measured air so the ecu added fuel although the engine never saw any of it, and it then ran really rich on gear changes but they did make a dunny flush noise that seems to have attracted a cult following. Funny thing is that Indy cars and world rally cars don’t have them. May the EPA isn't on to them yet. They also don’t blow up turbo’s very often. There goes that theory.

So you asked about the BA XR6T. Guess what it hasn't’t got an AFM. It dose its calculation via the manifold pressure sensor [map] and its mounted after the throttle so it never sees the pressure rise on gear changes. So why do they have a BOV STD? Makes you wonder, may be the after market guys are not the only ones that haven’t quite got a handle on it. The other reason would be they properly didn't’t like the dunny flush sound. That my guess.

_________________

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now we come to compressor surge.

This really isn't the noise you here on decell with no BOV in fact that noise is[THE GOBBLE GOBBLE] the compressed air going passed the compressor wheel of the Turbocharger in the wrong,direction. Dose it hurt the turbo. Not in my experience.Compressor surge is where the turbo is making to much boost pressure for the amount of volume its supplying. In other words the turbo is to big for the engine at the surge point.What can happen at this point is that the turbo tries to to compress the air to a higher level than the compressor can make so it slips or surges. Think of it like when your Tyre's break traction on a wet road the engine speed increases this is effectively what happens to the turbo and at this point the turbo over speeds and can often fail. BOV have absolutely no effect at this point as they are close when all this is happening. So what about throttle res ponce on gear changes. Again the only thing that drives the turbo is the exhaust gas and once the throttle is close for a manual gear change the turbo is slowing very quickly. If the gear change is fast the BOV hasn't got time to open as the inlet manifold needs to go into a state of vacuum to operate the BOV and this is unlikely on a snappy change. Plus on a snappy change as the throttle is closed the boost as we have previously discussed actually increases momentarily and this is then immediately ready to enter back into the engine the moment the throttle is re opened.

So if the gear change is slow and the manifold goes into vacuum and the BOV opens the boost pressure is then vented to atmosphere or if your lucky back to just in front of the turbo, so if your cars fitted with an AFM it doesn't run ridiculously rich for a split second, you have now dumped all the boost pressure in the intercooler and plumbing, you stand on the throttle at this point your car is back in a N/A state so you can now wait for the boost to build up and away you go again. Doesn't sound all that fast when it explained like that. Which is why WRC rally cars don't have them and went to boost enhancement instead.

OK now that you understand what compressor surge is I can now go back to my first comments about the gobble gobble noise not being surge. Well actually it is, But the reason it doesn't damage the turbo is that in that circumstance the throttle is closed so there is no exhaust gas to drive the turbine so it cant over speed. I'll take you back to the car doing a skid. Think of the car up on a trolley jack in gear doing 100 kph steady state throttle. Now lower the jack, yes the car will skid the Tyre's as it hits the floor but with very little accelerate it wont cause the engine to over rev.I hope I've explained it in a way that makes sense

_________________

     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So why do you have one?

As in the first post states emissions is the main reason and a must if the ECU is controlled by AFM.Secondly noise as far as a car manufacturer is concerned to get rid of the noise not make it. A well designed factory plumb back valve is almost silent.Thirdly there is some thought that a small increase in fuel economy is gained, as the BOV is opened while in cruise driving as the manifold vacuum is holding it opened the turbo doesn't have to push itself against the small amount of positive pressure it could be making, thus allow the turbine wheel to spin more freely and this then lowers back pressure.

_________________

Proprietor

Nizpro Turbocharging

Bayswater Victoria.

(03) - 9761 1522

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So what do blow off valves do again

[philldub]

told ya it was short