Edit - The Act Experience

[dingah2]

There was one amusing episode where my car sounded more like a 747 on lift off when on the Dyno.  I turned around to see Glen sitting in the car with an astonished WTF look and I as advised that now the Edit had taken over the boost control it had elected to give 24psi boost rather than the 14 requested!!  At least all the hoses and clips were still intact!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to ruin the magic of it all, but the Flash Tuner software is a tool that alters the data in the factory tables. Nothing happens for no reason....although it might sound romantic and give a bit of head scratching...you get what you ask for. If you ask for 24psi it will give it, and it you dont it wont.

No one ever suggested that understanding the way the factory engineers do their job was easy, and now we are doing things the same way, the same level of understanding needs to be there from the tuners involved. While it might not make sense to you Dingah, for those that have a background in any type of engineering the concepts of Integral and Derivative gains etc that drive the boost control system are straight forward. Hope this helps explain things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Welcome and nice second post.

if the tuning of these cars is as simple as you get what you ask for, why does every car I have seen react differntly to the same tune being applied..... lets see mechanical variables, different waste gate spring release times, different solinoid reaction time, different fuel pressure and dropping fuel pressure all have a huge effect on how these car respond to a known flash tune, yes, you ask for x and the flasher will give you x, but if the hardware on the car feels like giving you y, then that's what you will get, no matter how much you ask for x.

If all the cars were the same 100% in every way, then cool, what you say is true, but until then, there are any amount of variables.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

which is all the more reason for KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE DOING!

AND having knowledge on how all the system tables interact.

NO two cars will ever be the same! Engineering tolerances will account for that fact.

There is obviously still a lot to be learnt about the EDIT from all tuners.

Getting the most out of any car will always involve tweak, trial, evaluate and retweak and so on. Some tuners have known base maps for specific hardware combinations to start with, which saves on time and frustration in getting the best results.

Nick is pushing the envelope in extracting high power out of vehicles with standard components. Obviously playing around with tables and getting great results in some cars, but the same map will NOT be as effective in another because of the differences in not only user add on mods, but also the inherent variations in build tolerences.

FORD deliberately under rate (detune) the power capabilities of the Barra turbo to compensate for these variations.

When you tweak up for max performance on a given car, you lose that ability to compensate for the engineering tolerences across the board, and fuel variations. and ambient conditions that occur throughout Australia further complicate the situation.

At the end of the day, there is always a tradeoff between power output and reliability. It's a lot easier to get the power/reliability tradeoff in your favour when you spend the extra money on the hardware bits that improve the range of tolerance in the tune.... eg bigger injectors, free flowing exhaust, bigger IC, etc etc etc

Not to mention getting the (SSS) gearbox / (M) clutch strengthened.

chhers

tom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

....now there's a good post! Agree Turbotom.

Concerning the newbee second post - of course software never generates unforeseen 'features' does it!!...a bit off topic I'm afraid and this debate if followed to its conclusion will be of diminishing interest to its intended audience.

Cheers,

Dingah....just off to give it all a try.

[meatBOOST]

....now there's a good post!  Agree Turbotom.

Concerning the newbee second post - of course software never generates unforeseen 'features' does it!!...a bit off topic I'm afraid and this debate if followed to its conclusion will be of diminishing interest to its intended audience.

Cheers,

Dingah....just off to give it all a try.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to be a newbie

but if the Flash Tuner software corrupted any map in any way in your computer it would have never started. It has very advanced checksum and CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Checking) to make sure of a no-start condition if this ever occurred. Hence the problem when the Flash Tuner saw the interference of your Unichip.

And yes I am an engineer

[geea]

Tuning the Flasher takes along time to get good results. HPF have probably done as many BA XR6T's as anyone and will have a large store of base maps to use as starting points for most modded or stock T's. This being the case, when the Sydney guys came down they still limited it to 3 cars a day and they have 2 dyno's to use aswell. I think they were still having trouble getting 5 cars done over the 2 days.

Geea.

[Flukey]

if the tuning of these cars is as simple as you get what you ask for, why does every car I have seen react differntly to the same tune being applied..... lets see mechanical variables, different waste gate spring release times, different solinoid reaction time, different fuel pressure and dropping fuel pressure all have a huge effect on how these car respond to a known flash tune, yes, you ask for x and the flasher will give you x, but if the hardware on the car feels like giving you y, then that's what you will get, no matter how much you ask for x.

It takes a smart tuner to set these learns and gains right though which is why some will run into trouble when rushing a heap of cars on a day, they dont understand or know how the learns work, and this is where the problems start. Tuning with this software is not two trips around the block, nor is it childs play. Its a job for a smart and qualified tuner who has time and patience. Sorry to burst your bubble. This is also why a decent tune is more than a $200 exercise.

Which tuner do you work with/for?

[Street Tuner]

I know Meatboost personally. Hes an automotive software engineer, and doesnt tune cars for a living.

[dingah2]

Hmm that shows - typical engineer.... experts in process and not so hot on the outcomes, a little more respect for other appropriately qualified folk on this forum would help in not getting everyone offiside from the outset. Furthermore, reading posts instead of interpreting them would also help.

For the last time the Unichip was not in when the currupt load occurred; those that were there knew that, those that were not are guessing. I really appreciate the advice given and theories offered which will hopefully help others avoid that potential pitfall, but it appears as though that was not the issue at the time.

Further having been party to the amount of research, effort, experience and trial and error that has gone into getting many of us to the privileged position we are in with our Wogged Ts, dimissing those efforts with trite comments like a $200 tune is downright offensive.

Dingah

[gogo]

Hmm that shows - typical engineer.... experts in process and not so hot on the outcomes...

Dingah

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jeez Dingah - ease up on us poor widdle engineers will ya!!

Argh the wounds...

[Dannopower]

For the last time the Unichip was not in when the currupt load occurred; those that were there knew that, those that were not are guessing.  I really appreciate the advice given and theories offered which will hopefully help others avoid that potential pitfall, but it appears as though that was not the issue at the time.

Just a suggestion,

Would the fact of Dingah using his unichip for an extended period of time in his car, possibly altered the self learning part of the pcm to the point of if it was to be extracted without its association to the unichip, then perhaps it would be corrupt?

Is this theory of mine a possibility, or am I up too late and talking sh*te?

If the entire setup has been reliant on the unichip for so long, surely it has affected the reaction of the pcm once the unichip is removed from the equasion?

[dingah2]

Good thought Danno - it had certainly had a long term effect on my memory that's for sure. Now then how about some decent brakes....?

Dingah

[Headsex]

Would the fact of Dingah using his unichip for an extended period of time in his car, possibly altered the self learning part of the pcm to the point of if it was to be extracted without its association to the unichip, then perhaps it would be corrupt?

Is this theory of mine a possibility, or am I up too late and talking sh*te?

If the entire setup has been reliant on the unichip for so long, surely it has affected the reaction of the pcm once the unichip is removed from the equasion?

no.

Rather than saying "Self Learning" indicating it will remember it for later. Closed Loop would be a better way of describing the PI Controller. Its constantly Monitoring the boost levels and adjusting to suit the requested boost table.

In this closed loop system. the wastegate valve will attempt to get the desired boost requested. However, It will switch to open loop and command a wastegate duty cycle instead if the boost is under/over boosting by a "error" amount.

Ie, If the turbo is underboosting by more than x PSI than requested, it will set the duty cycle of the wastegate to 1 (fully closed). and if its overboosting by more than x PSI, it will set the duty cycle of the wastegate to 0 (fully open).

You can however choose not to use the PI Controller, and use Duty Cycle alone.. But that's almost like a Electronic version of the screwdriver adjusted bleed valve.

Danny.

Edited 01/01/06 02:20 PM by Headsex