Edit - The Act Experience

[dingah2]

In order to keep this balanced I have also placed this evolving experience on the APS thread as well. Readers please note that I have no bias to either solution and as you will see will lkely use both. These are my personal views and if you disagree then that is your right to do so but don't start another stupid tuning solution war as your individual bias is misplaced.

I have been running APS Phase II at around 280RWKW and then was edited yesterday. After the epic pantomime of a completely dead car resulting in it being towed to the dealer to have original software re-loaded the car is now Edit with Unichip together. Edit software is pretty average in terms of its code and useability and Unichip provides much higher resolution for more stable and finer tuning. In all honesty right now I cannot see or feel any real difference in performance between Phase II and Edit - sure you can fiddle with line pressures etc but I already have the gearbox modded. If you are after a stealth tune with no other mods on your car then I can appreciate that Edit provides the cheapest and quickest way to go but there are some horror stories out there too - pick your tuner very carefully and ensure a careful custom tune takes place as well. In terms of torque, power, AFRs etc I've seen nothing that Glen hasn't already achieved with APS Phase II. Will now experiment, time permitting wiith Dynowog, with keeping the Unichip with the Edit - just need to sort out how the boost is matched up throughout the range. With the intake, injectors and exhaust issues clearly well sorted with APS Phase II, so far there are no issues with fuel supply, or valve springs and nor should there be.

Having seen the Edit software I am very impressed with Nick's efforts, ability and patience with what he is producing; as for the Edit vs Unichip - an overdone argument stirred by a few and grossly overdone many many who either don't understand or haven't had either done properly. End-user numbers of power are not even half the story it's more about how much power and when - ie the shape of the curves and not necesarily where they end up. Have certainly seen the car much happier than first thought possible with less rich AFRs though.

Dingah

[bugster70]

Thanks for the post Dingah, good to see some unbiased feedback from someone who has tried both options. I don't think current APS users who are happy with what they've got have a lot to gain by switching to Edit, especially if (as you say) they've also had gearbox mods done already. However, for those starting out and wanting best bang for their buck, Edit is probably the way to go, especially if the stealth option is important to you. And now that Edit is capable of changing line pressures, etc, in auto transmissions, it makes even more sense. It'll be interesting to see how you go trying to combine both APS and Edit, or whether you end up deciding to go with one over the other. Good luck today mate, hope you get the outcome you're looking for.

[turbotom]

Well, I've done similar mods to you dingah, and I beg to differ in your analysis of the Unichip vs Edit.

I modded my trans, and then had the PH2 APS installed by APS.

Good increase in power to 272 rwkw, but car lacked bottom end grunt, and had ping just on gear changes under full throttle runs.

timing was retarded/boost reduced to compensate, but it inevitably still had the issue especially when the fuel tank was running low (< 1/3 tank)

Also. with time, the car felt progressively slower, especially at lower rev range (< 4000 rpm) although I was thinking it was just me getting used to the power.

After 9 months, I was after more power, and decided to fit the APS IC with the associated waste gate mods, and the bosch fuel pump. I figured, keep with the APS gear, as it has proven to be a good reliable package.

The pre-IC install dyno run showed a significant drop in power (down to 242 rwkw)

With the Unichip and the new APS IC and fuel pump I made a significant power gain to 307 rwkw. This setup has delivered a 12.8 @ 117 mph on stock 17" dunlops at AIR (60' of 2.1)

The problem was, I still lacked bottom end grunt. I could not even get the car to do lockup burnouts to warm the tyres up with my 2800 stall converter.

And once again, I felt that the car was variable in it's power output.

Continuing to feel slower as time progressed.

And it still had the momentary PING on gear changes under full throttle with low fuel level in tank???

I decided to fit the EDIT and see if the performance could be improved in the lower rev range.

Well, with all the same hardware components, this is what the EDIT achieved:

There is a significant (30~40 kW) gain in power below 4000 rpm, and the car has been transformed. The AFR's are now rock steady across the rev range, (Not all over the place as with the Unichip) and my fuel consumption has dropped...

from mid 19l/100km to mid 16l/100km around town, and from 12l/100km to low 10l/100km on interstate trips.

AND NO MORE PING! (saved myself the cost of fitting a surge tank, which I was led to believe might have been my problem)

The power is now consistent and has NOT tapered off.

I drive around on my everyday map, with a huge grin on my face.

Similar peak power as I had with my Ph2, but the delivery is so much stronger from low speed. Wheelspin is a real issue now.

The race map is on BP 98 Ultimate, and I am yet to get on the AIR track to make a proper comparison, as I believe that is the true indicator of good tuning.

Do I think the Edit has made a difference?

You bet I do.

(But it will always depend on the guy punching the numbers in.........)

In my opinion, pay the extra money for the best tune you can.

The more time spent on getting all the parameters set right, provides the greatest satisfaction in not only performance, but peace of mind.

tom

[bugster70]

This is gonna be an interesting thread. Bear in mind that Dingah has only just started down the Edit path and that APS (Unichip) was still controlling his boost pressures as far as I know 'cos he was trying to see how Unichip and Edit worked in conjunction. The Wog has yet to really wave his magic hand over Dingah's car and, after he has a chance to do that and let Edit control ALL the parameters, Dingah may well be singing a different tune. Can't wait to see the results actually.

[Ezy10z]

Theres been a lot of debate about the unichip V's edit and theres been main emphasis on the edit provided more low down grunt. This may sound like a stupid question but when the T first evolved the Unichip was very popular and we have to take into account that APS or other tuners were cautious with aggressive tunes to save the week gearbox in the mk 1. Is this a fare call ??? or regardless if you have the best edit tuner and the best unichip tuner and they both tune the same T for the best performance and torque curve would there be much of a difference ?

It would be nice to have the workshop who setup the unichip to install and tune the edit on the same car for a direct comparison on the performance gain without additinonal mods.

Robbie.

[gogo]

One of the the things that I think gets lost in all the heat of debate is that the unichip and aps kits still perform just as well as they ever did - which equals a considerable performance gain and a big grin relative to stock.

My experience has been similar to turbotom's however - I had APS PhII - then replaced the unichip with the edit. The result was a much smoother and more powerful response right across the rev range, particularly noticable down low, but I also gained 35kw top end with no other hardware changes. Again similar with Turbotom fuel economy has improved about 10% accross the range.

One very important thing that this thread raises again is the importance of the person doing the tuning. As bugster says - it will be interesting to see if dynowog can change Dingah2's perception of the capability of edit.

I have no experience in running both concurrently but would expect that the best reults would be acheived but 'zeroing' hte unichip - tuning with the edit, then fine tuning with the unichip. Will be very interested to see this in practice!!!!

Good luck with the development and cheers!

Ben.

[bugster70]

One of the the things that I think gets lost in all the heat of debate is that the unichip and aps kits still perform just as well as they ever did - which equals a considerable performance gain and a big grin relative to stock.

Yup, totally agree Ben, which is why I was saying I'm not sure there's a lot of point in changing from APS to Edit if you're already happy with what you've got. Sure, you may gain a bit more power (especially lower down), etc, but at the end of the day you need to weigh up whether the additional benefits are worth forking out the extra $1400+ that a flash tuner box and custom tune will set you back.

I understand the Wog, in conjunction with Glen at DTS, will be playing around with both Unichip and Edit to see what achieves the best outcome for Dingah's needs. 'Zeroing' the Unichip has already been discussed, as have a wide variety of other options. Dingah is being very patient while all this is going on with his beloved car!

[turbotom]

The APS hardware, is still, in my opinion amongst the best you can buy.

It was developed and engineered for performance AND reliability.

(bonus: Looks good too!)

The use of APS hardware with EDIT is an awesome combo.

Many of the issues that members are experiencing with EDIT alone, are overcome by enhancing with additional hardware mods....

eg

free flowing exhaust will reduce onset of valve flutter

Stiffer valve springs will further improve this issue at high boost levels

larger IC improves coping with repetitive high boost runs.

Issues with good boost control at elevated levels is overcome with better (bigger) waste gate control.

The Unichip, however, acting as a piggyback on the ECU, will always be a limitation on the APS phased systems.

now in my humble opinion.....

The use of a Nizpro's concept of feeding the air directly to a plenum without crossing over the motor, AND the use of APS exhaust and IC AND the EDIT would make for the ideal combo of parts available from Ausie suppliers.

That, in conjunction with a good tuner, of course.

tom

[jordak]

Well, I've done similar mods to you dingah, and I beg to differ in your analysis of the Unichip vs Edit.

I modded my trans, and then had the PH2 APS installed by APS.

Good increase in  power to 272 rwkw, but car lacked bottom end grunt, and had ping just on gear changes under full throttle runs.

timing was retarded/boost reduced to compensate, but it inevitably still had the issue especially when the fuel tank was running low (< 1/3 tank)

Also. with time, the car felt progressively slower, especially at lower rev range (< 4000 rpm) although I was thinking it was just me getting used to the power.

After 9 months, I was after more power, and decided to fit the APS IC with the associated waste gate mods, and the bosch fuel pump.  I figured, keep with the APS gear, as it has proven to be a good reliable package.

The pre-IC install dyno run showed a significant drop in power (down to 242 rwkw)

With the Unichip and the new APS IC and fuel pump I made a significant power gain to 307 rwkw.  This setup has delivered a 12.8 @ 117 mph on stock 17" dunlops at AIR (60' of 2.1)

The problem was, I still lacked bottom end grunt. I could not even get the car to do lockup burnouts to warm the tyres up with my 2800 stall converter.

And once again, I felt that the car was variable in it's power output.

Continuing to feel slower as time progressed.

And it still had the momentary PING on gear changes under full throttle with low fuel level in tank???

I decided to fit the EDIT and see if the performance could be improved in the lower rev range.

Well, with all the same hardware components, this is what the EDIT achieved:

There is a significant (30~40 kW) gain in power below 4000 rpm, and the car has been transformed. The AFR's are now rock steady across the rev range, (Not all over the place as with the Unichip) and my fuel consumption has dropped...

from mid 19l/100km to mid 16l/100km around town,  and from 12l/100km to low 10l/100km on interstate trips.

AND NO MORE PING!  (saved myself the cost of fitting a surge tank, which I was led to believe might have been my problem)

The power is now consistent and has NOT tapered off.

I drive around on my everyday map, with a huge grin on my face.

Similar peak power as I had with my Ph2, but the delivery is so much stronger from low speed.  Wheelspin is a real issue now.

The race map is on BP 98 Ultimate, and I am yet to get on the AIR track to make a proper comparison, as I believe that is the true indicator of good tuning.

Do I think the Edit has made a difference?

You bet I do. 

(But it will always depend on the guy punching the numbers in.........)

    In my opinion, pay the extra money for the best tune you can.

The more time spent on getting all the parameters set right, provides the greatest satisfaction in not only performance, but peace of mind.

tom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good informative post Tom

Interesting to hear that whilst you have over 300rwkw at your disposal you are happy to use the 270 odd rwkw as you're daily map.

For those of us contemplating these levels of power do we really need to go much beyond the 270 mark for a car that spends 90% of it's time on public rds.

The same applys to torque levels. With stock auto's (oil cooler) in real terms what is gained in driving pleasure by going from 650nm to 800nm or even 800nm to 1000nm.

I know some would say you can never have enough rwkw / nm however that's not the case for all of us. Lets face it by most peoples standards driving a 1800kg car with 240rwkw that loses traction in 1st and 2nd in a straight line on a dry rd is already beyond comprehension.

Slightly off topic I know but I'm interested in yours and others thoughts on this.

Steve

[Xtreme F6]

its a bit hard to have a comparison when your still using the unichip dont you think? remove it and tune the car with edit alone and then tell me the same thing you just did...