Vic Spotted & Chat Thread

[Paulie2256]

Hey danny, if around 320-330 on 98 is the "safe" zone for a ba engine does this change when using e85?

By safe I mean some people above that power start to see problems.

[XXXRTURBO]

time for a e85 tune after that lol

[Headsex]

^^^^^^^^^What the fark would you know? You only run a 10.3! Haha

Yeah only..You forgot to mention I also took off too slow, hit rev limitor once, shifted 4th before end of 1/4 torching a band in the auto.

Hey danny, if around 320-330 on 98 is the "safe" zone for a ba engine does this change when using e85?

By safe I mean some people above that power start to see problems.

I've tuned a number of BA engines (with my choice of correct bolt ons) to the 360-380rwkw mark.

One of these however did bend a rod(didnt window the block). It was only when we pulled the engine out we noticed that the vac line from the bottom of his process west plenum had come off, which lead to his fuel pressure regulator. Which ironically his Boost gauge was also T'd into this same vac line. He told me his Boost gauge has not been working for quite a long time(we're talking 1year +). So the engine itself lasted quite some time in a lean condition as the fuel reg had no reference to the boost it was running, thus, did not rich up when on boost.

I've was running approx 395-420rwkw for some time on 100 octane fuel (the lower being on my std turbo, the higher been the gt42). It was only when I re-tuned it some time last year on e85. Mind you. my car has 72k's on it, so its low kays for a BA2. I don't drive it often.. But rest assured when I do.. "I drive it"..

In terms of BA's only handling with 300-330rwkw is more associated with the lack of tuning knowledge / experience workshops had when they first got the tuning software.

Alot of workshops have a lot more experience / knowledge over time with tuning vehicles, so their tuning knowledge controlling the FORD Pcm has significantly improved.

Coincidentally, I've seen a number of other workshops tunes, and noticed tuners have copied the Borderline Knock Table to the MBT Table.

So what they've done is

1) f*ck up any possible torque calculations

2) messed up the knock detection algorithms

3) removed the ability for any corrections to alter the timing*

Take note of 3).

Borderline Knock table is a spark table. This is often referred to as a Base spark map. Which holds true somewhat. However. It is a Base Spark map at lambda 1, and 20c air temp.

There are other spark tables which add/remove timing based on environmental conditions. There is also a spark modifier table which adds or removes timing based on Lambda value (ie, Richer or leaner fuel ratios), As well as Cam Angle.

The MBT Spark table is used for a number of algorithms.

Primarily the table contains the Timing for the maximum torque the motor can produce. This is typically calculated on a spread sheet with advanced mathmatics, as in the real world a engine will potentially detonate before timing reaches this number.

This table is heavily used in torque calculations for torque reductions, as well as in the knock detection calculations.

The MBT table is also a "maximum Clip".. Meaning, if the Borderline Spark table + any additional adders based on fuel ratio or environmental is higher than this table, it will clip it to the value in the MBT.

Now referring back to 3). What they have done, is dumbed down the ford PCM. Either they've had problems where they've tuned a car, but under certain conditions its pinged, and they haven't isolated it. Tuners who do not do extensive data logging the PCM when tuning them are potentially the tuners that find themselves in this situation.

So by coping the Borderline to MBT, they've essentially made the Borderline spark table the "Final" spark value table. Air temp correction, engine temp correction, etc cannot add any more spark timing to the Borderline table.

So as a Con, you loose additional timing when engine is cold, air temp is cold, which the engine needs, or it would potentially cough or hiccup. As well as the fact that the torque calculations get very confused, and the knock detection fails to work. Often I see knock detection completely disabled, or have 1 or 0.5 as maximum retard)

As a Pro, at least the tuner knows the car will never ping, because no correction will be allowed to add any more timing.

I also often see a lot of tuners (and I mean A LOT!!!!) disable the Air Fuel ratio spark modifier table. The job of this table is to add spark as fuel ratio goes richer (ie, remember that Borderline knock table is based on the condition that Air fuel ratio must be 14.64 (lambda 1.0). My table adds as much as 6 degree's timing from when it goes from lambda 1.0, to lambda 0.8.

I'm actually thinking of starting to constructively criticize the "work" of other tuners tunes I've come across. I would explain in detail why what they have done is wrong, and explain the correct method to do this. In saying this, I am open to the idea of showing the stuff I do in my own tunes. I have educated a number of tuners across Australia with a number of things regarding the ford pcm. Some who use this forum, and some who do not.

SCT software does not give the ability to "read" an existing tune out of a car, But I am able to do it via my own developments. (HPTuners also allows you to read, But it lacks a large number of tables that a tuner has access to in the SCT software).

At the end of the day, Any tuner can enter the correct AFR / Boost / Timing at get the most power, But don't by any means think this would be the best tuner to go to. The car could be a pig to drive, torque reduction (if they didn't disable it) will be annoying, and most noticeably, pedal response will suck big time.

[Headsex]

Sorry Paulee, I think I forgot to answer your question.

But yes. due to e85 being slower burning, it is nicer on the engine.

Think of how the combustion process works, ie, the 4 strokes. Spark ignition occurs on the Compression cycle of the engine :- the piston is travelling up, So, "10" degrees of timing, means the spark plug is ignited when the crank is 10 degree's before Top dead center. Top dead center being the point of which the piston stops moving up, and almost starts to move down.

With Conventional fuel, race fuel, etc, These engines are tuned to withing 1 degree of Detonation, sometimes on the edge of detonation.. Why? Because that's when they make maximum power.

Now the average XR6 Turbo, with 15psi boost, making approx say 360rwkw, will have say approx 13 degree's timing, lowest being at peak torque, and highest being higher in the RPM.

Bring E85 into the mix.. your timing initially could almost be doubled at WOT.. ie, 13 degree's could be 26 degrees. Now as I said earlier, with E85 being a slow burning fuel, you can add timing above where it makes its max peak power, and it wont make any more power.. ie, the timing you end up running in the engine is no longer on edge to detonating.

So realistically you have quite a large amount of timing head room before the engine will detonate, which is the actual process that will blow up an engine.

Edited 14/05/12 05:44 AM by Headsex

[freeze_dk]

If I inhailed e85 before sexytime will I last more then 30 seconds?

[Paulie2256]

Thanks for explaining that sex head.

[Dillz]

You need to open a shop already..

[freeze_dk]

Was gonna say the same thing dills..

Dyno - 80k and youll have sh*tload of ppl wanting tunes.. Pay it off in a year

[Headsex]

If I inhailed e85 before sexytime will I last more then 30 seconds?

Maybe.. But I mean seriously... 30 seconds? are you 14?

But most of the time, You'll just smile like I do thinking how yummy the e85 exhaust smells.

[Headsex]

Was gonna say the same thing dills..

Dyno - 80k and youll have sh*tload of ppl wanting tunes.. Pay it off in a year

I already own a dyno, Its in my garage.. Just ask stainless :- he built my dyno trolley™ - out of metal not stainless :(

Edited 14/05/12 06:39 AM by Headsex