Another Licence Lost

[jetute]

I have not read all the replies and apologise if this has alreaduy been said... There is a loop hole that everyone can use.

A guy got of recently by his lawyer succesfully arguing that we are not to know what are school days and what are not..... how are we meant to remeber all the public holidays, which schools have longer holidays etc....

The lawyer stated that this loop hole can used by anyone until signage is changed to a sign that lights up on school days... otherwise how would you know whats a school day and which schools have a school day on that particular day.

Good luck mate.... again my apologies if this was already covered... I was too lazy to read all the replies

[Jaymz]

The normal posted speed should be less than the amount you can lose a license by really. It is unfair for a 40 school zone to be placed in a 70 zone in your case or an 80 zone in QLD (QLD you have to be 40km/h or more over to lose license). What is to stop the police from sitting at a zone 5 minutes before or after the zone time and having their clock set fast or slow. I know my clock is not set at 100% accurate GMT+10 time and so if you were to get caught at the start or end of the time limit you could think you are doing the posted limit ie 70 or 80 and not speeding at all and by their time be during the 40 zone and be over by 30 or 40 and therefore lose your license. Fair enough if you are caught over the posted limit you are a gonna, but to be doing the limit during normal times and be over the limit enough to lose your license during school times is just straight out UNFAIR.

[JB]

Thanks again guys, yeah I won't be intimidated by the courts I like to think I have a reasonable head on me (brains not looks )

I have already begun to document alot of information (up to 3 pages now) and I went back this afternoon and measured out all the distances, and as I went back and forth over the area, it became more and more apparent how wrong this whole thing is, and how much I believe I should fight this as it is clearly misleading.

I am praying nothing ever turns up in the mail, however I am resigned that if it does I will get a lawyer and challenge it.

Here are some of the notes I have taken on the incident so far:

Approx 8:15am I was heading on Victoria St into the town. I had just come off the main hwy from Melbourne and stopped at the first set of lights. As I took off on approaching me was a speed sign clearly marked 70km/h to which I gradually proceeded to. Subsequently after that at approx 100 metres was a school crossing sign designating at 40km/h zone. As I approached the sign ahead I could clearly see the school crossing and the bright orange crossing ahead sign, also clear orange flags displayed, and also clearly a crossing supervisor standing at the crossing.

I consequently slowed down to the required speed of 40km/h and proceeded approx 100metres through the zone until a clearly marked sign indicated the original speed of 70km/h to which I gradually built back up to.

As I started to approach the designated speed limit and went through a set of traffic lights I looked further up the road to see another set of traffic lights in the distance. As I approached the next set of lights there were no visible flags out, nor any indication of a crossing supervisor, the total distance covered by then was approx 200m and I did not see any 40km/h posted sign, only to be waved over by a police officer as I proceeded through the crossing, I pulled over into a service road as requested and the following conversation from my recollection took place.

Me: “Hi is there a problem?”

Officer: “Sir I have you on radar from 200meteres doing 67km/h”

Me: “Really, I could not tell you if that was correct or not”

Officer:’Can I have your licence please’?

Me: “yes”

Officer: “can you tell me your name and address”?

Me: “Yes” (Details Given )

Officer” Do you realize you were speeding”

Me: “I was not speeding”

Officer: Do you realise this is a 40km/h zone

Me: : Yes it was back there you would have seen me go through at 40km/h”

Officer: “No the crossing over here”

Me: “Where?”

Officer : “Here” points over to the crossing

Officer: ”Do you have any reason for speeding today”

Me: “No, but I do not believe I was speeding”

Officer: “Sir it’s a 40km/h zone”

Me: But there is nothing on display, there are no flags or Supervisor on duty”

Officer: There does not have to be, it’s a 40km/h zone

Me: But I was doing the posted limit back there that was 70km/h

Officer: “this time of the day is 40km/h”

Me: “Yes but there are no flags or any indication that it is in use”

Officer” There does not have to be”

Me: “So what about school holidays then?”

Officer: “Same rule applies”

Me: “But there is no indication that the crossing is I use and that it applies to that”

Officer: “There is a supervisor over there”

Me: “Where”?

Officer (Points across road, across the service lane where the supervisor is stood next to a tree, clearly out of view, and a good 10-15 metres away from the crossing)

Me: “But there is no flags or anything, I did not think it applied if it is not manned”

Me: ”I always slow down at the crossing’s as I did clearly did back there”

Officer: “Yes but you did not here”

Officer: “You were going 27km/h over the limit”

Officer” You will receive paperwork in the mail”

Officer: “ You will also receive paperwork from Vic Roads advising in 28 days your licence will be cancelled for 1 month”

Me: “Cancelled? Why?”

Officer: “yes your are 25km/h over the limit”

Me: But is’nt it 30km/h over the limit?

Officer: No its 25km/h”

Me: You are kidding”

Officer:’ No Sir”

Silence, then.

Officer: ok have a good day.

Coversation ends I drive off.

There are 6 school crossings all on the same road in Ballarat, all had their flags out and a supervisor clearly on display, however this set of lights or supposed crossing did not have a supervisor on display no flags out and looked disused. This is also the only 40km/h zone that also does not display the bright orange Chrildren Crossing sign at any point on the road, where all the other do. The other car I was driving with was also doing the same speed as myself, but did not get pulled over.

As I drive down that stretch of road at least 3 times per week, there are school days when flags are out and others when school is not obviously on, even though it is a weekday, how are we meant to judge what’s applicable with a poorly communicated speed zone, there is no sufficient public notification of the days declared as holidays and schooldays for government schools.

There are up 5 changes in speed in a distance of approx 1.5km. The changes in speed are not small but an avg 30km/h up or down dependant on the section of road, being 40km/h up to 70km/h, then back to 40km/h then back to 70km/h.

Technically as indicated by the original speed sign I was doing under the posted limit of 70km/h.

There is not enough necessary advice given to drivers about when the zones operate and so forth.

This 40km/h school zone format must be comprehensible to all motorists so rather than devoting their concentration to the numerous speed zone changes in one section of road, they can devote their concentration to driving safely rather than be forced to be looking at their watches and checking their diaries."

DETAILED NOTES OF DISTANCES COVERED:

Proceeded off the Western Hwy at 80km/h

Proceeded to first set of lights

Go through intersection where 70 meters on the first 70km/h sign is posted

Proceed 200m down the road

40km/h Zone

50m further on from the 40km/h sign there is a Bright orange Crossing ahead sign.

150m on from this sign the speed changes to

70km/h again for 600m

As you cover the 600m distance you pass 2x70km/h signs then you come to another set of lights.

As you pass through the intersection (lights) and 50m on you see a

40km/h sign

You proceed for another 250m with no other signs present (eg Orange Crossing Sign as per all other crossings) then you come up to your next set of lights (supposed crossing where I was booked)

Go through the lights for an additional 450m then you get a

70km/h sign

50m after this sign you get another set of traffic lights (No crossing at these ones)

There was no difference between the set of lights I was booked at against the set of lights following in relation to signage. They were identical except one was supposedly a childrens crossing. All other crossing were clearly marked with bright Orange signage, flags, and crossing supervisors.

[Superoo]

Sorry to hear of the misfortune JB.

I have usually been pretty unforgiving when hearing of these things (27km/h over etc) but when it comes to speed school zones in Vic, it is nothing short of a joke.

I totally support the reduced limits, but the methods used to sign these zones is unacceptable.

The most common signage appears to be the "40" sign which are only active between 8-9:30am and 2:30-4pm. By the time you read the sign (assuming you read it all and understand it), check the time and adjust your speed (in some case this can be by 30-40km/h), you can be half way through them. The guy behind you has his clock set at 5 mins later or earlier than you so he is giving you the finger and blowing his horn. I go through one of these every day and now avoid it as I'm sick and tired of being abused just because I'm sitting on 40. What time is it? Is it school holidays? Does it matter if it is? Pupil free days? Weekends? What does "school days" mean? As you have unfortunately found, the punishment of misinterpreting the sign is far too great for the crime. Don't forget that 2 years ago the same government had no reduction around schools.

The other two signage methods are much better - fixed 40 zone signs permanently, or electronic signs that change at the designated times. I also travel through these and they function much better - no need to check the time and no ambiguity - clear and simple. If 40 zones are so important then they should be signed with the same level of importance - not left open to "interpretations"

Fight it on principle and good luck!

[Flukey]

Pics JB, Pics. Not for here, for your day in court. That is ludicrous. Mr Plod would have a field day there, just sit back and let them roll in. The Vic government has to be accountable for like this. They dont understand they mess with peoples livelihood because they are too cheap to pay for variable speed signs.

Mate, just plain wrong in my view and I hope you have a win.

[toca_rop]

After reading your posts JB I would definitly take it to court,if there is poor or even no signage and no crossing signs then theres the chance you might even think that the school has closed down

[tuffxr6]

Good luck with the case jb,I thought I was treated unfairly hope everything works out.

Peter.

[mickq]

  Phucknuckle said:

  OwnaXR6T said:

My advise, borrow your wifes car. drive without a liscence its only a month. The way the road rules are getting u have no chance keeping your liscence. So what else can u do?? 25 over limit isnt hard to do. stupid

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great Idea.............but what happens if he is involved in an accident? Even if he was not the at fault driver.....No Licence = No Insurance.........No Insurance = Say goodbye to everything you own if someone is injured!

Too big a risk in my book!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not so. If someone is interested they are covered by TAC regardless. The only thing to be of concern is the cost of paying for any cars/property you may damage in the event of an accident.

[rapt]

  Quote

Thanks again guys, yeah I won't be intimidated by the courts I like to think I have a reasonable head on me (brains not looks )

I have already begun to document alot of information (up to 3 pages now) and I went back this afternoon and measured out all the distances, and as I went back and forth over the area, it became more and more apparent how wrong this whole thing is, and how much I believe I should fight this as it is clearly misleading.

I am praying nothing ever turns up in the mail, however I am resigned that if it does I will get a lawyer and challenge it.

Here are some of the notes I have taken on the incident so far:

Approx 8:15am I was heading on Victoria St into the town. I had just come off the main hwy from Melbourne and stopped at the first set of lights. As I took off on approaching me was a speed sign clearly marked 70km/h to which I gradually proceeded to. Subsequently after that at approx 100 metres was a school crossing sign designating at 40km/h zone. As I approached the sign ahead I could clearly see the school crossing and the bright orange crossing ahead sign, also clear orange flags displayed, and also clearly a crossing supervisor standing at the crossing.

I consequently slowed down to the required speed of 40km/h and proceeded approx 100metres through the zone until a clearly marked sign indicated the original speed of 70km/h to which I gradually built back up to.

As I started to approach the designated speed limit and went through a set of traffic lights I looked further up the road to see another set of traffic lights in the distance. As I approached the next set of lights there were no visible flags out, nor any indication of a crossing supervisor, the total distance covered by then was approx 200m and I did not see any 40km/h posted sign, only to be waved over by a police officer as I proceeded through the crossing, I pulled over into a service road as requested and the following conversation from my recollection took place.

Me: “Hi is there a problem?”

Officer: “Sir I have you on radar from 200meteres doing 67km/h”

Me: “Really, I could not tell you if that was correct or not”

Officer:’Can I have your licence please’?

Me: “yes”

Officer: “can you tell me your name and address”?

Me: “Yes” (Details Given )

Officer” Do you realize you were speeding”

Me: “I was not speeding”

Officer: Do you realise this is a 40km/h zone

Me: : Yes it was back there you would have seen me go through at 40km/h”

Officer: “No the crossing over here”

Me: “Where?”

Officer : “Here” points over to the crossing

Officer: ”Do you have any reason for speeding today”

Me: “No, but I do not believe I was speeding”

Officer: “Sir it’s a 40km/h zone”

Me: But there is nothing on display, there are no flags or Supervisor on duty”

Officer: There does not have to be, it’s a 40km/h zone

Me: But I was doing the posted limit back there that was 70km/h

Officer: “this time of the day is 40km/h”

Me: “Yes but there are no flags or any indication that it is in use”

Officer” There does not have to be”

Me: “So what about school holidays then?”

Officer: “Same rule applies”

Me: “But there is no indication that the crossing is I use and that it applies to that”

Officer: “There is a supervisor over there”

Me: “Where”?

Officer (Points across road, across the service lane where the supervisor is stood next to a tree, clearly out of view, and a good 10-15 metres away from the crossing)

Me: “But there is no flags or anything, I did not think it applied if it is not manned”

Me: ”I always slow down at the crossing’s as I did clearly did back there”

Officer: “Yes but you did not here”

Officer: “You were going 27km/h over the limit”

Officer” You will receive paperwork in the mail”

Officer: “ You will also receive paperwork from Vic Roads advising in 28 days your licence will be cancelled for 1 month”

Me: “Cancelled? Why?”

Officer: “yes your are 25km/h over the limit”

Me: But is’nt it 30km/h over the limit?

Officer: No its 25km/h”

Me: You are kidding”

Officer:’ No Sir”

Silence, then.

Officer: ok have a good day.

Coversation ends I drive off.

Your a better man than me JB I would have blown a piston

[mickq]

Bummer.

A few things of note:

1) A school crossing, strictly speaking, is only active when flags are displayed. When they are not displayed, it is the same as any other side of the street - nothing special about it. However out of courtesy most people treat people waiting to cross there the same regardless of flag status at the time.

2) A 40kmh zone is not due to the school crossing, it is due to the school. It is a designated school zone. (ie area around a school). This is as per Vicroads guidelines.

3) If there is no sign there after the 70kmh sign you saw, then you were still in a 70kmh zone. Go check this immediately. Take photos/film if there is no 40 sign after the 70 sign to the point where you were pulled over.

That is enough to get you off it no sign is present as there was nothing to indicate a 40 zone had now started. I do not believe there is a rule saying all school crossings are 40 zones without signs.

4) It is very likely not a permanent 40kmh zone. Permanent 40 zones only apply on streets which have a normal speed limit of 50kmh. In that case school hours dont apply - its 24hrs a day. But in your case it sounds like it was a 70 zone intially, meaning that the 40 zone should only apply during the nominated school hours. If there is a 40 sign, check the times it applies and confirm you were booked during that time.

5) If you are not 100% sure the school was open on that day, call the school and ask. (Probably was, but unless you saw kids in the grounds, call and check).

6) Definitely ask why the speed wasnt downgraded. However if you were pinged at 27 over it would downgrade to probably 25 and that is still the same penalty. it will be written on the fine you get (alleged speed, actual speed etc). Ask questions if they give the wrong speed, as you were shown the speedo so know the policeman was mistaken.

Good luck. This is the first time I have heard of cops booking people in 40 zones - until now I had always wondered why they didnt.