Edit/ Piggyback Tuning

[JB]

Guys, first and formost this topic is to get an understanding of the tuning requirements of customers T's, without it being a which is better than the other fight.

I have learnt alot since being a member on this forum. From attending Tuning days, spending time with like minded enthusiasts, and asking alot of questions. From all this I have gained a solid understanding around most topics in relation to modding the T, but always strive for more.

With technology constantly being developed to help the aftermarket tuning side of the T this is where I have now become slightly confused.

I am now open to all forms of opinions and feedback on the topic of tuning. With the release of the edit I have been told many different things, some make sense, some do not.

My belief is that when you tune the T with an aftermarket programme, you must tailor that tune specifically to that car. Obviously there is a base tune that the tuners work off, and subsequently alter from there to suit the requirements and get the best possible result for that particular car.

This would also be more apparent in a car that has had aftermarket bits put on it, I.e injectors, exhaust etc.

The other reason for this thought process is the fact that through numerous dyno runs we see much variance from car to car on a standard setup. Now I don't want a debate about dyno readings, I think we all acknowledge that each T can be very different in power in standard trim, up to 40rwkw is some circumstances. Ontop of this we have restrictions like injectors etc, but probably the main one being valve springs. Some members have had no trouble with them, others have had them replaced at 270rwkw others have had to at 250rwkw, dependant on the individual car.

Factoring in my understandings, how can a product such as an edit come out and claim that the generic tune, will suit all T's? With the variances in cars how can this occur. Once again I understand that the base tune platform would be a start but given different tolerances in cars there would need to be certain minor adjustments made to suit?I am sure that the tunes will work fine, but are they being maximised to suit the car? Will there be any long term effects?

I understand a custom tune can be adapted to the car for this particular programme, and I would suggest for those with mods, will head down this path for safety reasons more than anything.

I cannot understand then why at the Herrods night, it was indicated that those with an already modded car would not require a custome tune as there was enough tunes on file that covered Exhaust, injector mods etc, that could be provided to customers without a custom tune? What are the repercussions of this. If you engine goes bang are you covered?

To me loading in a programme that changes the parametres of my Fuel/air/timing and boost ratios with no initial checking of my individual cars settings is dangerous. I understand the changes may only be minor, but still to me its almost taking a gamble

To me this goes against everything I have learnt, and to me spells danger. What are people thoughts? What are those with the experince and knowledge in the tuning industries thoughts? Surely it would be beneficial to all to have the programme tuned to your car? Modded or not, to maximise the tune, but considering the differences these cars have to ensure it does not do long term damage.

This is not a go at the product as I think we all acknowledge that this is the way we are headed with the T. To me however with the many different things I have been told there seems to be a lack of understanding and almost a rush with people putting these into their cars.

Please take this in the constructive way it is questioned, as I said it is my requirement to continually build my understanding and knowledge, as this is why I am here on this forum.

Look forward to your thoughts and understandings.

[Grant]

JB,

I have a feeling that we're going to see something like this.

Peter: That's exactly the problem, just wait for APSEdit and you'll get a custom tune instead of a mail order one. It's only 11 weeks away now you know.

Stuner: Bah, strap ons are a thing of the past. APS edit doesn't exist anyway.

JB: Hey Tuner, can you answer the question.

But hey, I could be wrong

Grant

[Street Tuner]

Yeah in a nutshell -

CAPA/SCT Edit base tunes are conservative, yet produce the promised results

CAPA/SCT Edit uses the feedback features and adaptive learning of the ECU to trim fuel mixture +/- 25% to suit the aim AFR targeted in the program

CAPA/SCT Edit uses closed loop boost control to learn the boost the engine is running (due to cooler/exhaust mods) and lock it at the predetermined level

CAPA/SCT Edit integrates the factory knock sensor into the ignition timing map, and can aggressively protect the engine for low quality fuel

A whole mindset change is required here. This isnt a rough way of tricking the engine with no feedback like a piggyback. This is genuine manufacturer level tuning. Hope this all makes sense

Edited 22/12/04 11:41 PM by Street Tuner

[JB]

Hey Martin, understand your points, and as I said it's not a pissing contest. I agree with Grant, I am not interested in the edit does this and the APS does that.

Taking the brand names out of the equation, I really want to understand in simplistic terms how a generic tune can be applied to a car accross the board, with no individual custom tuning requirements, comsidering the facts I have indicated above.

How does this also apply to a T with mods I.e filter, exhaust etc, as we know that these make a difference to the way the car runs without even applying a tune, so how can we then put in a tune that does not measure the individual gains and tolerances that particular car has?

I am asking as I have had much debate with people in realtion to this, and we have come to the conclusion that it really needs to be clarified further.

Thanks

[Street Tuner]

Ok, read the first paragraph of my post, and then come back to me if you have any more questions

[JB]

Yes I look and absorbed it a bit further. I understand the benefits of controlling the factory PCM rather tha tricking it.

So basically, it 'Self Tunes" to certain variances +or -.

At what point then would you suggest a 'custom tune'?

What sort of differences in power could the custome tune provide against a generic, self adjusting tune?

I am obviously thinking more down the modified path rather than stock.

thanks

[Pretzel]

CAPA/SCT Edit base tunes are conservative, yet produce the promised results

CAPA/SCT Edit uses the feedback features and adaptive learning of the ECU to trim fuel mixture +/- 25% to suit the aim AFR targeted in the program

CAPA/SCT Edit integrates the factory knock sensor into the ignition timing map, and can aggressively protect the engine for low quality fuel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Street tuner,

Firstly I am not a tuner, but I think I know a reasonable amount about tuning/engine requirements etc..

I am having trouble understanding how these Edit's do what they claim, and the reliability of them long term !

I understand the tunes are conservative, yet closer to optimum than factory, which makes sense, as factory tunes have to be Ultra-Conservative !

Can you explain to me how the system is capable of tuning for correct AFR's across the entire range ? The reason for this question is that FORD put in a Narrow band O2 sensor, which they use for the improved economy tune at cruise only!(As you know this is a very lean range) Now you are telling us that this system allows you to use that Narrow Band O2 sensor to measure, and tune/adjust accordingly as if it was a Wide Band O2 sensor ?

How can you use a sensor in the vehicle that is designed to read figures in a small range, to reliably tune a car far outside the range the sensor is designed for ?

Yes it may give figures outside of it's 'optimum' range, but how reliable/accurate will it be ?

Ok, you will obviously have some protection by still utilising the factory knock sensor, but you're putting a lot of faith in that sensor functioning properly !

What if it does detect knock, a car you've given a customer a tune of let's say 250rwkw will then drop to (at a guess maybe what 200 ? How much will the knock sensor retard the timing or whatever it does ?)

Not having a go here, just wanting to understand it a bit more !

Thanks

Pretzel

[Miyagi]

(this is what I come to read this forum for... what a thread.. get me a beer I'm settling in for the night as all my mates have piked on the pub)

[sixfan]

JB,

Each and every T comes from the factory with an Identical "tune" If the vehicle is unmodded, why wouldn't a new edit optimised to work on an unmodded T be OK?

Methinks some panic + misinformation has been spread.

If you can edit the tune on a dyno, what difference is there between products?

Remember; for the last 40 years we've tuned cars by rotating the distributor (GADS! with your hand!) and by changing jets in the carbies. Not rocket science really.

Less panic of instant detonation of motors please, If you know what your doing, or you've got someone who knows what thier doing, you'll be fine.

[Turbo6man]

JB> This is my understanding - I'll try to put it in simple terms for all:-

When you buy a car from Ford it has a generic tune. As you have said the engines can vary and the output seems to vary by up to 10kw from what I have seen. However we don't see any going 'bang'. This is because the factory generic tune is set on the conservative side and it is closed lock looped so it self learns the particular engine's requirements and sets itself for that engine.

So it follows that the generic tunes offered by the BOSS-EDIT software is just more of the same but raised to the next level of performance.

The only part that concerns me at all with it is that tuners have the ability to disable some or all of the factory in-built safety features eg torque reduction strategies to safeguard the transmission. IMO a standard car should not have too radical a tune-up with BOSS-EDIT but certainly gains in the order of 15% - 20% should be achievable without undue stress on the standard components. I say this because from my own experience working with Ford Service for many years I believe Ford ALWAYS allow a fair safety margin.

So for modest performance increases the generic tunes will be quite safe and effective in their application.

Now if the owner wishes to modify his car further then more aggressive tunes can be adapted to suit and in these instances there may well be reason to specify an individual tune for each vehicle. This is because all components will be working closer to their limits and therefore closer attention/control has to be given to things like A/F ratio, valve timing, ignition timing and so on.