Vct

[Turbo6man]

  XRT UTE said:

Street Tuner,

in your opinion/experience, which would give more gains, camshaft timing or ignition timing?? or a combination of both?

How much of a gain can be had by adjusting the cam timing ONLY. You would have first hand experience at this I assume??

Is it more beneficial to adjust ignition timing only?

I'd like to see a dyno graph, for curiousity, of a stock T or Foon, with appropriate air/fuel and then with only ignition timing and then with only VCT timing.

I am aware everything goes hand in hand to get the best results, but you get my drift?

This is only to see the benefits of vct on an engine, reason being, my experience with cam gears, results have been minimal..

Maybe I am on the wrong track and the main advantage is it can shift the power band more to where it is required to take stresses off the driveline etc, but don't you just do that with ignition timing?

I'm not a tuner, far from it, but I have seen it done, so that makes me an expert yeah?? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have never had the pleasure of having variable cam timing to play with - in the past you'd just choose a cam that suited the application and then tuned the timing and fuel maps to suit.

I would expect that the cam timing is the first adjustment a tuner would make - selecting an opening and closing point for any given rpm with reference against engine load and throttle position at those rpm. So, simply put, maximising air flow for max torque at that point. THEN, advancing timing to maximum sustainable to suit the cam setting ... then adjusting fuel mixture to optimum at that setting.

You can see it could become very complicated and this is where a powerful PCM comes into it's own. The tuner can set the parameters, in other words tell the PCM what are the desireable outcomes required and the PCM does the calcs on the fly and sets cams, timing, a/f ratios and 'burns' the map into itself.

So to recap - first set cams for best air flow in/out of your pump (engine). Then set timing for max burn efficiency. Then set A/F for max power.

[turb06]

  Ford_Power said:

One other thing to realise is that Ford would not have wanted to implement the variable cam timing.  If they did implement the variable cam timing, it would increase low down torque which is NOT what they want to do given the manual gearboxes and auto transmissions and the risk of destroying them.

The car is powerful and torquey enough without utilising the fully independent cam timing feature.  Another thing to remember is that they need room for further engine torque/power outputs when a new series is due - utilising the fully independent cam is a simple way to do this.

Ross

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wonder if they will just reflash the ECU's or whatever of older models to give them the same power levels.

Dazza.

[Goobz]

  turb06 said:

I wonder if they will just reflash the ECU's or whatever of older models to give them the same power levels.

Dazza.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt it. What incentive would that give you to upgrade your older model to a bright shiny new one with the fantastic new engine!!! Haha!!!

Its all about getting more money outta you!!! Haha!!!

Chris

[YOOT]

Isn't the VCT still the same as the old VCT, where it just retards the cam 1- degrees at low rpm to provide better breathing and maybe more torque (read: less likely to bog). Once your reving it just goes back to its orginal position.

[rusht]

  Goobz said:

  turb06 said:

I wonder if they will just reflash the ECU's or whatever of older models to give them the same power levels.

Dazza.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt it. What incentive would that give you to upgrade your older model to a bright shiny new one with the fantastic new engine!!! Haha!!!

Its all about getting more money outta you!!! Haha!!!

Chris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some Expensive Daewoo dealers reflashed superceeded Gen III Commodores to the new model power level as they were released (where the power upgrades were from ECU changes). Owners needed to ask though and justify it with rough idle, poor starting etc..

[Venom XR6]

The Typhoon is the first model that can control the VCT independently of each other. The capability is there in all BA 6's but hasn't been programmed in. It would add a few kw's right through the rev range.

[shockwave]

  Venom XR6 said:

The Typhoon is the first model that can control the VCT independently of each other. The capability is there in all BA 6's but hasn't been programmed in. It would add a few kw's right through the rev range.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This isn't the first time I have heard this either.

Has anyone tried an F6 flash image in their T yet? I'm assuming the ECUs have the same processor and flash size.

[Ford_Power]

I dont think it would be a good idea to flash an F6 image into a standard XR6T PCM - reason being that the F6 has a bigger intercooler and as such will be mapped slightly differently.

Im sure the flash would work, but I doubt it would be what one would call a safe option!

Ross

[IPhido]

As I recall in the BA, it only adjusts the cams at idle to improve emissions and reduce noise and vibration.

The thing is VCT adds many complexities with ECU programming. I belive cost is really the only reason why Ford didn't bother with properly programming the VCT units. Costs and time.

I wouldn't be that supprised if the Ford intends to use the VCT units mostly to improve economy and emissions not power or torque.

My guess is that they are developing the a new engine tune with the new Auto. And they will arrive together as well.

But I wouldn't expect amazing jumps.. Maybe 182 to 190kw for the base models.

[F6_Tornado]

  IPhido said:

As I recall in the BA, it only adjusts the cams at idle to improve emissions and reduce noise and vibration.

The thing is VCT adds many complexities with ECU programming. I belive cost is really the only reason why Ford didn't bother with properly programming the VCT units. Costs and time.

I wouldn't be that supprised if the Ford intends to use the VCT units mostly to improve economy and emissions not power or torque.

My guess is that they are developing the a new engine tune with the new Auto. And they will arrive together as well.

But I wouldn't expect amazing jumps.. Maybe 182 to 190kw for the base models.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It’s been implemented in the F6 so the development work is already been done and the complexities are nothing that would not normally be encountered when improving an engine fuel, emissions, kw’s, Torque.

In fact id say after the air intake improvements the biggest single contributing factor to the extra 100nm of torque would be the cam timing.

Not sure how you came to the figure of an extra 8kw but I’d expect a something way way above that figure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The ability to to manipulate both cams independently will take some time for the tuners to get a handle on to maximize its effectiveness but something that will change so much in the future.

Even now I think APS have punched out over 300rwkw from a phaseII F6 compared to only 330fwkws from an XR6T with a lot less mod’s.

I’m sure Peter could possibly expand on this some more.

@Ford power> what nothing ventured nothing gained? The whole practice of screwing the guts out of these engines is a risk and at times like walking on egg shells so don’t be afraid to try anything. The only problem I could foresee would be the lack of air cooling but as a “short” test id be straight into it and have a go……….If its what we would expect then to add a bigger cooler is nothing at all if you want an extra 100nm possibly??????????

Besides since when has playing with the engine output had any rulz? Nothing written that I have read that says don’t try this or that, it’s the brave and sometimes silly people that usually come up with the biggest results testing and doing what everyone else says you cant in this game.

Id even suggest that the injectors are mapped out after 4500rpm on the F6 to limit its kw’s . Take a good look at the FPV graph and I’d say at a guess that there is still another 40kw’ left at least with a good edit only and nothing else.

There is no way any company would have the injectors cycling at 100% as they always leave at least a 20% margin and no doubt they have done so here so expect F6 with its cam setup and a good edit only to have at least 250~270rwkw without any trouble at all.

Then if you want 300rwk’s plus then see APS as I believe at this point in time their new APS Edit will prove to be a real winner.