Drive review: VZ SS vs BA2 XR8

[ZMAN]

Um, did l mention that Drive found the BA2 XR8 had driveline shunt  :lol:  :lol:

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Yawn..............Yeh I think you did Mondie.

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I love this forum.....

[Blonk]

Finally everyone agrees...Wow you can use the gearbox to slow the vehicle and not only is it acceptable it prolonges the life of the drivetrain.... 78000 words just to agree with me.... but in their own special way.... Ahh.. It takes all sorts .. thankfully the tasmanian connection is here.. Maybe now you could teach me how to put on my shoes.... Damn I suppose I have to undo the laces... man anal tasmanians......

[JB]

Once again Rubbish, Ratt can you please back up your comments with facts, it is widely know that these problems are common, as per my earlier post in this thread indicating the backlog of diffs on order, do you really believe that Ford budgeted for over 1000 diffs to be replaced? That's just the backlog not actually including the ones that have already been replaced.

Sorry JB but it's not rubbish. The fact is we are members of a site where the vast majority of members own an XR6T, and many in manual, we are here because we are enthusiasts and are more padantic about our cars than the average owner. So naturally we will complain if we feel the product isn't up to our standards.

The problems do exist as I said in my earlier post, no denying that. But I feel that there are some people who are misleading others in making them feel that practically every manual BA has shunt, every BA has electrical faults, every BA has brake shudder. It is not the case, there are many owners happily enjoying their experience in their BA and say nothing.

What and that's acceptable? You pay $50k for a poorly engineered car? So you are telling me that if you were told when purchasing the car that it wil have a shunting problem you would still purchase it? Having to drive around a cars faults, to me is not acceptable when I can go and spend $50k on a car that does not shunt. I too have driven around the shunting problem by doubling the clutch, however the shunting has now become that bad that it is impossile to do so. Ontop of that I can now get my clutch to slip after 27,000k.

The BA is hardly a poorly engineered car!

Yes I am also telling you that I purchased my XR6 Turbo knowing full well that it may have the shunt, I have 900km on it now and if I release the clutch or accelerator quick enough I get the shunt, otherwise nothing. That's what it was like with the XT V8 and I drove around it, trust me it's not that hard. I have never double clutched either. It's all about the timing. But this is just my opinion.

Please understand for the guys who are complaining about these problems, they are not in a position of completely baging their T's. I like most love my T, enjoy driving it, and the good points about it make me want to hold onto the car, even with the problems I have had. It's just we want our cars to work as they were designed to do, like everyone elses. Then we can fully enjoy what is a great car.

JB I mean no disrespect for the people who feel this is a major issue and I value your opinion as well.

Also cast your minds back to AUI XR. 5% of total Falcon sales were XR, it steadily increased through to AUIII. Now it's anything around 15-20% I think. It's a huge increase. AU had shunt as well, although there were no internet forums anything like today for people to talk about it. Now with BA there are many more XR out there coupled with forums such as this one and it is ripe for people to express opinions, concerns and whatever else they like so it seems to some that BA is a dud, which it is not. It is the most comprehensively engineered Falcon ever with performance sedans capable of running with a HOey.

No problems Ratt, You have some valid points which I understand and agree with. Thanks for providing a constructive response, it's refreshing

[JB]

Blonk, whilst everyone has sat here and split hairs over compression braking, I think the main point of the first page or so of the post was to identify what the ongoing problems are. We could debate all day whether they are wide spread or not however, the point was that we should not have to compensate our driving style to accomodate the faults within the car, not only is that sound rediculous it's outright dangerous and not roadworthy.

If brakes cannot handle a day to day driving activity on public roads, there is an issue, you should not have to compensate your gear changes to eliminate shunt, that has been the main point. Whilst you know your car, if someone else was to drive it are you going to tell them "oh by the way you have to use the gears as the brakes fade after hevy application on public roads, and make sure you double the clutch every gear change as it clunks". That's plain rediculous in today's environment.

Tell people to piss off and buy something else is no means constructive, and deludes the whole part of the point of this forum. To share experiences good and bad, if you don't want to here it or be involved, don't post. I would suggest with the limited time you have been here, take time out and read many posts that have gone along this topic before you come in and tell others to go somewhere else.

If you had also read, many people experiencing these problems love their T's they just want what others have, a working one with no problems.

I am not having a personal dig at you I am just saying look around and get further information before making stupid useless factless comments.

[RATT]

Not correct.  Shunt was the reason I joined forums in the first place and that was in 99.  Guys like Falchoon predate me.

I had it my AU XR8 and I too learnt to drive around it until I fixed it.  I then became involved with trying to get other users similar fixes.  I can tell you the build of a person and the driving position does affect how bad this problem can be.  That might sound stupid but by changing the seating position we were able to get very bad cars back to reasonable.  At the end of the day though the smoothest way was to ride the clutch and that is unacceptable 

While it is true these particular forums weren't around I can assure you places like Blueovalnews had a very strong contingent of diff concerned owners.  In fact BON was the place many members first met Geoff Polites. 

The percentages don't matter, the fact is this is a well known problem with Falcons that is in no way related to just BA.  But that is the real problem.

What your describing isn't really shunt.  Well it is and it isn't.  The very best manuals in the world will do what you describe and really that level is acceptable.

The real issues are in cars that you can't depress the clutch with out the rear end going bang or if you don't ride the clutch on engagement the car shunts.

On a trailing throttle especially down hills the backlash is so sever you have to brake or knock it out of gear stop the racket at the rear end.

I have seen BAs where it isn't possible to do a three point turn and hear the radio the noise has been so loud.  I know owners that have switched to autos because of their AU experience.  In the club community and even in the general public there is dissatisfaction at the time this problem has been about.  Just because you can’t hear them doesn’t me they aren't there. 

I understand your point about the sweaky wheel gets the most oil and you are right and it can look unfair to an otherwise excellent product, but this is pretty basic stuff that has been around for a long time. 

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Ian I think the numbers do matter in the greater scheme of things as there is now a greater number of people with the same issues as they existed in AU, although not necessarily a higher percentage. It's just that now there are forums such as this allowing us to become more vocal about it.

Also regarding shunt under trailing throttle, that is something I have not experienced unless you tap the accelerator.

I have seen you around since BON too and have seen it all now!

Cheers,

Dean

[HSE2]

Not correct.  Shunt was the reason I joined forums in the first place and that was in 99.  Guys like Falchoon predate me.

I had it my AU XR8 and I too learnt to drive around it until I fixed it.  I then became involved with trying to get other users similar fixes.  I can tell you the build of a person and the driving position does affect how bad this problem can be.  That might sound stupid but by changing the seating position we were able to get very bad cars back to reasonable.  At the end of the day though the smoothest way was to ride the clutch and that is unacceptable 

While it is true these particular forums weren't around I can assure you places like Blueovalnews had a very strong contingent of diff concerned owners.  In fact BON was the place many members first met Geoff Polites. 

The percentages don't matter, the fact is this is a well known problem with Falcons that is in no way related to just BA.  But that is the real problem.

What your describing isn't really shunt.  Well it is and it isn't.  The very best manuals in the world will do what you describe and really that level is acceptable.

The real issues are in cars that you can't depress the clutch with out the rear end going bang or if you don't ride the clutch on engagement the car shunts.

On a trailing throttle especially down hills the backlash is so sever you have to brake or knock it out of gear stop the racket at the rear end.

I have seen BAs where it isn't possible to do a three point turn and hear the radio the noise has been so loud.  I know owners that have switched to autos because of their AU experience.  In the club community and even in the general public there is dissatisfaction at the time this problem has been about.  Just because you can’t hear them doesn’t me they aren't there. 

I understand your point about the sweaky wheel gets the most oil and you are right and it can look unfair to an otherwise excellent product, but this is pretty basic stuff that has been around for a long time. 

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Ian I think the numbers do matter in the greater scheme of things as there is now a greater number of people with the same issues as they existed in AU, although not necessarily a higher percentage. It's just that now there are forums such as this allowing us to become more vocal about it.

Also regarding shunt under trailing throttle, that is something I have not experienced unless you tap the accelerator.

I have seen you around since BON too and have seen it all now!

Cheers,

Dean

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Hello Dean

The very worse cases have that much extra play that on a trailing throttle and descending the car will slap.

Oh and I agree the numbers do matter, we have a much more popular product and selling a greater number but virtually zero improvement in what really has to be a supplier issue.

[HSE2]

Finally everyone agrees...Wow you can use the gearbox to slow the vehicle and not only is it acceptable it prolonges the life of the drivetrain.... 78000 words just to agree with me....  but in their own special way.... Ahh.. It takes all sorts .. thankfully the tasmanian connection is here.. Maybe now you could teach me how to put on my shoes.... Damn I suppose I have to undo the laces... man anal tasmanians......

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Funny what people will read into conversations to try and save face.

Right here and now I will apologies for the way I treated you. In a weak moment I resorted to your level and ignored your right to have a say (no matter how ignorant it was) of the facts that people were talking about at the time.

You have to realise that you jumped into a conversation and basically told people to piss off. You want to do that then be prepared for what follows, but you have an apology from me.

I would encourage you again to read what T6M has said very carefully.

It is not a simple subject and the line between abuse and what you call acceptable is thin. The interjection of race cars and trucks and the simplified conversation there after doesn't do this conversation justice by a long way. Trucks have inbuilt engine braking devices some as many as three and for the large part continue to run drum brake technology. Extreme driving conditions deserve special techniques.

My view, as mentioned by Merc is very much a view based on mechanical sympathy first that does not compromise car safety and control.

What can be done and what should be done to prolong the life of your car are two different things entirely. What has margin for error and what doesn’t are again completely different

Every part of your car has a set life. Every time you use that part it is one time closer to wearing out. Every time you change gears is one less time the throw out bearing can work every time the clutch is used it slips and so on. Ok you won't see any problems in your life time (if you’re lucky) if you get rid of it after a couple of years but in the cars life time the chances are you will. Slowing a car on the gearbox can't prolong the life of the driveline and in the case of the Fords and their diff issues especially so.

It is a mechanical impossibility, because each time you use something you increase wear and more so if it isn't primarily designed for such a function. As an engineer you should know that. Yes it can stand it and yes it can work but is it the most efficient system at your disposal for the job at hand and there is no way its life is being prolonged.

The way you approach normal day driving should be the same as if you are confronted with an emergency stop. That needs to happen on instinct. People get into more trouble then not because they don't actually know how there car will act under heavy braking. People drive around with the car pulling right or left and then wonder why it performs badly when they really need it. If you instinctively associate changing down to slow down chances are you aren't going to react in the most efficient way when you really need to be.

You never really know how good or safe your driving technique is until its too late.

You aren't really seeing it Falcons yet but the next step in safety is actually crash avoidance systems. We have the passive air bags and next you will see brake systems develop to making avoiding a crash the priority. Features like EBA ESC EBD and ECC are designed to work on the most effective and efficient method of retarding speed while giving you optimum control. They are designed to give the best control and balance in a very wide range of conditions. Braking only the driving wheels especially if turning compared to what these type systems offer is no contest. Even with today’s 4 channel ABS there is no contest.

At the end of the day your brake pads are designed so even the owner can change them. They aren't expensive and they have a life expectancy much shorter then the rest of the system. It is commonsense.

Nice touch about Tasmania. Would you like your shoe laces explained via the one or two head theory?

In case you missed it, this side of the conversation is considered off topic. If you want to discuss it further start a thread, I will be sure to participate when I can, or alternatively please fee free to contact me personally on my email ianp@kooee.com.au and I will devote what ever time is required to discuss in greater length.

I won’t respond in this thread after the members having hinted enough is enough so don’t think I am ignoring you.

Edited 26/10/04 11:30 PM by HSE2

[Falchoon]

I take exception to anyone telling other to piss off as if to say their opinion isn't worthy of note.  Other forums imply such thinking; this forum should be above that.

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Wonder what forum Ian could possibly be talking about?!

Interesting reading guys, try not to let it become too personal hey. :o

[sbr79]

I agree with turbo6man.

And for MK2 to still be showing signs of the same fault that has been in play for going on 7 years, that is contempt.

Any other business would be on their arse.

Yes but then shouldn't Expensive Daewoo be held accountable for this same reason, after all the Ambulance Driver I know said Expensive Daewoo neglected safety issues for many years. And they still have a 3 month minimum wait for engine rebuilds on GEN 1, 2 and 3.

Trust me I unloaded a container of Expensive Daewoo engines heading back to GM, I happened to have a sneak peak at the manifest, they are all rebuilds. Oh and there were 2 AU six cylinder motors not sure what was wrong with them but. They looked homesick though, missing their underbonnet mansion I thinks.

Not trying to start another episode of Ricky Lake, but FORD aren't anymore criminal then any other Motor Company.

I mean you can't Comapre a Falcon to a BMW, when both comapnies charge a hell of a different price for their product and target different costumer bases.

[Blonk]

And also,I apoligise if I have in anyway offended the hosts and members of this gallery... You see, yes I am an engineer and if you like I can provide the equation to show you guys how far more force is applied to the driveline under acceleration than can ever be applied by compression braking... Negetive and positive forces applied evenly will increase longevity in a domestic gearbox as this is what they have been designed for... A gearbox in a jetski is totally different as it accomodates force being applied in one direction only and it's life span is half that of a cars gearbox....

Of note I would also like to add that after my upsetting members of this site my email address attached to this site was bombarded with email bourne viruses---4 to be exact... None however got to hatch and create the misery they can... Interesting thing is, I only created the email address specifically for this site.... BEWARE.. There are malicious people out there that find if they cannot agree, wish to harm you behind the secrecy of the internet...

JB... Yes I am new and thanks for the advice.... I didnt know the comment would draw the reaction that it did.... Thankfully there are people like yourself around that respond rather than react...