Speeding fine question

[Macktheknife]

  Cro said:

  BA_Turbs said:

He has already done you a favour by writing down the speed, so why  in his face?

So do I.

[Zeke]

Now you guys are making me feel bad. In the early hours of the morning. I didn't think about the "ethics" of the situation.

I was imagining the police officer in court saying something like "well, yes, I got the licence number wrong and I got the car model wrong......but I'm pretty sure the rest of the evidence is more accurate than that". I think that sounds a bit suss and hardly convincing.

But the other views posted suggest that this wouldn't work as a defence and they come from people who probably know more about it than I do.

Anyway, I didn't really expect it would go to court. As for "sh*tting in his face" I thought some clerical person would assess the matter and decide whether to pursue it. They must get a few like this and I imagined they might just issue a warning and drop it, without a witchhunt or black mark for the cop concerned.

After reading about Turbo6's experience, I reckon I might have guessed wrong. Well, you learn something everyday.

[turb06]

I doubt he cop involved would ever get a black mark against his/her name, especially if the fine was issued at night. Every time I have been fined (which was often, but never by camera) they police officer had always written down my details using a pissy little flash light, so the conditions for them to read and write properly arent the best. I have had a few mistakes on tickets.

[mattpwc]

I got a speeding ticket 3 months ago... the officer got my car make wrong (said holden... pitooey) and didnt circle any demerit points( in nz so same but different to your system) wrote a letter stating these problems and got one back saying tuf titi... but then lawyer told me that I would have won in court... always worth a crack to get off but the time off work and the disruption to my day by going to court wasnt worth it... so coughed up $120 and had done with it... always depends how much the ticket is worth and how many demerit points you have left and for how long... in nz you get 100 demerit points... go over this and you lose your licence for 3 months and insurance gets expensive if you can get it at all... demerit points last 2years ... how does it work in australia

[Cro]

100 demerits? Far out...

We get 12 demerits and that's our license gone..

How many demerits does a simple under 15km/h speeding fine give you?

Here it's 2 I think.

[OwnaXR6T]

It is 2 points here. It used to be 1 though...

Did you see in the US they are lifting speed limits on Hwy's becasue they have come to realise that FATIGE is more of a safety issue than speeding, I also belieive this!!

[Cro]

Nothing will put you to sleep faster than sitting at 110km/h on a long hwy trip, not looking forward to going to Vic

[mickq]

  BA_Turbs said:

I assume from some of your other posts you are Victorian.

If you want to use those as grounds to get out of paying your fine, its off to court.

Once you are there, all sh*t aside, it comes down to whether a professional witness like the policeman can convince the magistrate there was a reason for the error.

If there was another reason to fight it and this was a side issue, I'd say yes, you had a reasonable chance, but with this as your only line of defence, personally, I wouldn't waste my time.

The policeman will get up and offer his well rehearsed evidence deatiling the intricate details of how to operate a radar/laser speed measuring device. The type of vehicle has no bearing on proving te offence other than your partially contributing to your ID. You would need to try the defence that it was not you driving the vehicle. Do you think you could get away with that in a court? If not, as I said, the type of vehicle has nothing to do with it.

He has already done you a favour by writing down the speed, so why in his face? Not a personal attack, but on that defence, if he is even moderately capable of executing his duties, he will win, and you'll be out of pocket.

I wouldnt say Im sh*tting in his face. My perspective is simple:

Ok, so he says I did something wrong. The onus is on him to ensure he does everything 100% by the book. if he doesnt, then I should not get in trouble. Its the "game": they try to pin it on you using the rules, you try to use the same rules to get off - which is perfectly reasonable as the rules are there to a) get you and b) ensure they do it properly. ie the rules are there to protect *both* sides.

The ends do not justify the means under the law.

if they dont do it properly, they should not get you. They should be big enough to say "Ok, so one that wasnt processed properly got away...officer, be a little more accurate next time.....NEXT!".

If Im caught fair and square, no problem. But if they dont closely follow their own damn processes, then tough luck: they should know better as they do it day in and day out.

Its not like we are talking murder here.

I will be interested to see if the wrong license number is picked up. Depends on how good their processing systems are. If done properly, they shoudl enter the license number, then check the screen details to ensure it matches the name/address that he also wrote down. if they dont do that it will either associate the fine with a different driver (the guy with that license#) or more likely come back blank, at which time Id imagine they woudl enter my name, address birthdate etc manually and associate the offence with my license that way.

Also, does anyone know if it is acceptable to operate a LIDAR (Laser Radar) device through your windscreen or side window? The guy pinged me with his window shut as it was raining. Given how much glass (esp laminated glass) can alter light, Im wondering if there is a rule against them using LIDAR through glass as it WILL effect the laser.

[mattpwc]

  Cro said:

100 demerits? Far out...

We get 12 demerits and that's our license gone..

How many demerits does a simple under 15km/h speeding fine give you?

Here it's 2 I think.

got a ticket for 20ks over limit... 20 demerits and a $170 fine... those demerits last for 2 years and if you break 100 points bye bye license for 3 months... of course more speed more demerits I.e 40ks over the limt would be 50 demerits and probably $400 fine... points fall off you licence after 2 years

[Ford_Power]

Ooh.. I would NEVER EVER EVER pay a Laser (LIDAR) fine if the speed reading was obtained in the rain.

At the very BEST, the latest laser guns have an "inclement weather mode" (read: fog ONLY) and claim that they can be used through glass, but if it was RAINING, it in no way shape or form can be assumed to be correct. This is one I would fight to the death. LIDAR, uses light,(904nm invisible to the human eye) and as such is affected by rain droplets and fog.

There are a few types of errors associated with LIDAR

Cosine Error: is the angle from the 0° perpendicular to the target vehicle. The greater the cosine angle the greater the error. However, cosine error is always in favor of the motorist, ie: speed readings will be proportionally less than actual speed of the target vehicle.

Sweep Error: is manifested when the laser is aimed at one part of the vehicle, say the license plate, and due to the motion of the operator, the laser also targets a side mirror during the same trigger pull. Sweep error adds to the real speed of the target vehicle.

Reflection Error: On very hot days with low humidity a visible mirage/reflection of the target vehicle is created. In many cases, when the laser is aimed at the target vehicle the infrared beam also receives readings from both the target vehicle and the mirage causing a Sweep Error.

Overexposure Error: When a laser gun receives an extremely powerful reflective signal, such as a sun flare off a vehicle, the computer’s timer can’t see the return of the 904 nanometer signal it sent. It can’t compute a speed reading. In general, the laser gun is looking for the strongest return reflection of its own emitted beam for speed computation.

What you get in the rainy condition is the "Sweep Error". This happens because the light is refracted by the rain droplets randomly. As such, the light is bent and may very well reflect off your side mirror, then back off your bumper in a small amount of time, thus making the gun "think" you are travelling faster then you really are.

What happens is that the gun first sees the reflection off the side mirror, it sees your car as being say 150m away. Now in the same trigger pull (typically 0.3-0.4 seconds for the gun to acquire the speed) the gun now sees the reflection off the front bumper.

So what does the gun think? It thinks that you have basically travelled the distance from your side side mirror to your front bumper (assume 1.5m) in 0.4s (1/0.4*1.5=2.5m/s)

Converting to km/h => 2.5/1000m * 3600s = 9km/h

This equates to the gun thinking you are travelling 9km/h FASTER than you really are!

NOTE: Sweep error can also happen in the dry if the operator does not have a very steady hand. One needs to realise that if the police officer is targeting a vehicle at 300m, that 1 degree of movement equates to the target beam moving 5.2metres! (5.2=300*Tan1) (Ie the officer could well be targeting your car and the one next to you inadvertantly. It is for this reason that they generally dont target you until you are within 100m.

Ross