Safety Of A Hybrid Car

[harvyk]

This was started in another topic, but I think it's something that could be argued until the cows come home...

or have a think about whether you want to try and rescue folk trapped in it after a crash... with all that elec-trickery at seriously high voltage lying around in very large capacitors I'm having lots of second thoughts about it...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same could be said for petrol cars, try rescuing someone from a crashed petrol car and think about how explosive petrol can be...

I'd imagine that there would be a isolation switch somewhere for the electro-hybrids, not to mention a way to safely earth all electrical systems first... and again the same thing could be said about normal cars in that the battaries in them can usually produce a few amps, all it takes is 100 milliamps (0.1 of an amp) to actually kill someone... Infact almost any electrical appliance used around the house has the potential to be leathal if something goes wrong...

I just find it a little amusing when I heard that you'd need to do nearly 800,000 km to break even on fuel costs compared to getting a same sized car in a petrol only version...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, petrol is explosive, yes petrol is flammable. But I can smell petrol, I can see petrol. I can tell if petrol is leaking... and I can see/feel the heat from burning petrol...

But I can't see electricity, the very large capacitors in hybrids contain massive charges and I would not where to look to find an isolation switch. Even if you turn the switch off, completing the circuit for a capacitor will probably kill you - providing I could find the switch and earth the systems... anyone carry a multimeter in their boot ? I carry an extinguiser though!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the battaries \ amps \ voltages in a normal engine are more than enough to kill, and besides once a capactor has been discharged (through an earth or through you) that's it... I'm not saying that petrol hybrids are not dangerous, what I am saying is that petrol hybrids are not more or less dangerous than pertrol only engines.

[Venom XR6]

I remember reading in the cars guide a few months ago that all emergency service people have been trained in what to do if they attempt a rescue of a person in a petrol/electric hybrid. First thing is to find the kill switch.

[Antisocial]

I remember reading in the cars guide a few months ago that all emergency service people have been trained in what to do if they attempt a rescue of a person in a petrol/electric hybrid. First thing is to find the kill switch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes that's true, my next door neighbour is a fire rescue guy and he went on a Toyota training course

All about how to disable it and where not to cut it with the jaws of life...

[Mick Molloy]

I saw on a motoring show you would have to do 800,000k in a hybrid car before you made a fuel saving over the cost of similar petrol car...

[replicant]

I mentioned this because I spend a lot of time driving along open country roads getting to ski hills or away on dive trips and have often been one of the first to arrive at an accident site... and even I haven't been the first to arrive, often the first person trained in first aid with basic equipment eg extinguisher, first aid kit, warning triangle, hi vis gear, torches and tools.

Now the guys in emergency services are great professionals and I think they do a superb job. Often if you do happen upon an accident scene, as someone trained in first aid I think you have an obligation to try and help folk out - figured karma what goes around, comes around.

Now, the first thing you do at a site is try to ascertain risks and severity. You make assessments on relative risk, try to secure the scene and decide on priority for tasks including getting help and providing help.

Now with my background, I'm aware of the risks of injury to self in helping others. It's something you consider when deciding a course of action - but I do know that with a hybrid that there's much more unknown risk. Sure a conventional combustion car is risky with fire and the electrical system can hurt you (the voltage off the ignition is pretty nasty). But it's reasonably easy to figure out how to turn off the ignition with the key.

On the other hand, a damaged hybrid contains all sorts of stuff like capacitors, batteries with nastier stuff than lead acid (and more of them) and much more wiring - along with the combustibles like fuel. Earthing a capacitor is going to do some serious damage if it passes thru you and it's not obvious if a panel is charged.

Call me a luddite but the thought of being fried does make me worry if I did find a severely damaged Prius. Much more so than a conventional car - not to mention all the nasty stuff in the batteries...

[harvyk]

I'd guess that the manufactures had already taken into consideration what happens to the electrical stuff during an accident, I'd say that everything will be double insulated and able to sustain insulation during a crash at 100km/h... However funny enough the Toyota website doesn't actually mention anything about high voltages \ amps and what happens to them during a crash...

Whilst I can see where your coming from I'd say you'd have to be pretty unlucky to touch a panel in one of those things and get zapped... Id say that the designers would have done extensive crash testing showing what happens to the voltages inside the engine during and after a crash, and that the car will not become electrified itself during a crash...

[Mondie]

l guess it requires a re-education of emergency services workers, good to see Toyota are being pro-active in that regard. Still got to be 100 times safer than getting called to a serious accident involving a car on LPG l reckon.

[drcook]

I saw on a motoring show you would have to do 800,000k in a hybrid car before you made a fuel saving over the cost of similar petrol car...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and youd look like a hippie tool in the process.

[basil135]

Having attended a number of vehicle accidents, both as a civvy who just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time, and as a part of the CFS rescue team, I would be cautious about the hybrids.

For a start, they have huge electrical charges in the capacitors & battery cells, as well as the petrol stuff.

A “normal” car still has a battery, and way way down the other end is a fuel tank. Even a vehicle with LPG has an isolation switch on the tank. The point here is that the ignition source (battery) and the fuel source (petrol, LPG) are separated. Yes I know there is fuel under the bonnet, however most cars these days have an electric fuel pump connected to the safety system. If the system detects a crash, the power to the fuel pump is disconnected about the same time as that big white cloud appears in front of you (aka – air bags).

Now as a firey, we always had a charged line at the front of the vehicle (or for the less technically minded, a bloody big hose full of water pointing at the engine), whenever there was anyone in or near the car, and until the battery can be disconnected (black one first). Even if you had to hit the engine with a burst of the wet stuff, the normal charge in a standard battery is unlikely to travel back along the water stream.

With a hybrid holding heaps and heaps more charge in its capacitors, and that charge being so close to the stuff that goes “whoofff” (petrol), I would be worried about hitting it with any amount of water.

That means we are down to DCP or CO2 extinguishers. CO2 is a problem if someone is trapped, as it works by removing the oxygen from the air. Not good for supporting critically ill people. DCP is better in this regard, but the power is so fine that it can cause breathing problems for anyone, let alone someone who has being injured.

At the end of the day, I hope it never happens, but if it does, I will ring 000, cross my fingers, and get in there to help.

[replicant]

Thanks Basil135 - I understand the risks that professional rescue folk have to face with this stuff everyday and appreciate your comments and knowledge which confirms what I understood about the risks.

There are lots of things that can hurt you... but part of understanding how to help someone in emergency situations is to understand the risks. For instance, I once worked in a mainframe computer facility that used a (now banned) halon fire quenching system. Halon was very effective but like CO2 removes or displaces free oxygen to starve the fire. Now when I initially was familiarising myself with the facility, I noted the Halon system was there and took the time to understand what it did.

While I was there, we had a fire alarm - and boy did I make sure I cleared out of the place quickly, one of my workmates couldn't understand what to make of it until I explained what the water less system did to put out fires. The next time the alarm was triggered he wasn't waiting for anybody...

I hate the fact that I have to consider the risk - after all it's my nature to get in and help - which part of the reason I carry a rescue kit in the car and with me when we go skiing or on hand when I go diving. But I'm also conscious that I don't want to present another victim at an accident site.